Did Jesus die before he was born?

Hi
Let me make sure I heard you cleary.
If a man is beaten all night long by Roman soldiers.
Then he is forced to carry his own cross to his deathplace.
Then is nailed to the cross. Hangs there for hours. In that
middle eastern sun. Then he has a soldier stab him in his side
to make sure that he's dead, ..... then why do you think that
he would not be seriously injured? Also, why would he need to
fake a death and resurection.
If you want proof of Jesus read the Old testement he fulfilled 333 prophesies from it. Jesus is not a folk tale that expanded over centuries. He was spoken of even in Genesis 3:15.Check this out
Isaiah 53:1
1 Who hath believed our message? and to whom hath the arm of Jehovah been revealed?2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.3 He was despised, and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and as one from whom men hide their face he was despised; and we esteemed him not.5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.7 He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.hmm... sounds a lot like Jesus to me. Which was written at least 800 years prior to his birth. Sounds like his ministry didn't begin at his birth but that it has been the plan all along even from the Garden of Eden.

I know exactly what you are saying Yaro, and you do have a good point.
But, I've noticed that in recent years people have begun to deny the very existance that Jesus ever lived. I don't know if that's what you are saying or not. For those who belive that Jesus existed in history, and that he was a good man and such. How can you believe such a thing. In my studying it has been reveild to me that Jesus didn't leave anyone that choice. Would a good man claim to be God and not be... sounds like a cult leader to me... and also, would a liar claim to be God, yes, but what would Jesus gain from his teaching by lying, to be crucified? ... one last thing could he have been a lunatic? No. So liar and lunatic have been eleminated from our context. So what is left, the fact that he is Lord.So it seems that Jesus has given us 3 choices.... that he is Lord, a Liar, or a Lunatic...Jesus said that He is God. Either he was lying, he was a lunatic, or he was telling the truth. And personally I believe the latter.("Note: If you don't want to understand this, you won't.")One of the things that are very convicing is the prophecy in Daniel would you belive that it predicts the very year of Jesus's death?

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

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26 And after sixty and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined.
The Hebrew word translated in the place of "week" actually means "heptad". Which is a unit of 7. A simular word that we use
in english is dozen. A unit of 12.K, now that we got that down lets move on.

9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks
So from the decree to rebuilding of Jerusalem until the promissed Messiah would come would be a total of 7 * 62 (units of 7) =434 yearsWe read in Nehemiah Chp 1-2 that the decree was made to rebuild Jerusalem.
And after sixty and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
We are told that after 62 weeks (434 years) that the Messiah would be cut off or killed. And it turns out that Jesus rode into Jerusalem and was crucified exactly 434 years after the walls of Jerusalem were rebuilt in Nehemiah. Can this be mere coincenence?If you think so, then that's too bad, I urge you to dig up and look into this. The truth will not hide nor does it lie. If you truely seek it you will find it. Because He who is the truth is seeking you as well.

Hi crashfrog.
First off, who is C.S Lewis? I've never heard of him or read any of his text. And also can you prove to me that what Jesus says in the Bible is false? There is more proof that he is true. On what grounds do you make this claim?We have to look at this in plain clear perspective. What does anyone in the Bible have to gain by lying and making things up? The author of the Bible is the Holy Spirit of God. How else could the Bible flow together so perfectly? The Bible was written over a span of 1800 years, and over 40 people had a hand in writing it.Over 200,000 people around the world are being saved every single day. That is just unheard of. God is making a great move in the world today through missionaries around the world. Jesus offers salvation to any and everyone. And it is very apparent that He is alive and well. No other religous figure has ever done anything like this and never will. Because Christianity is not a religion of good works but rather a relationship with God himself. Good works are just the fruit of the nature of Christ. And any Christian can tell you that once you are saved, you know the truth and see the lies of the enemy clearer.--- God Bless

Hi, I'm glad that many are interested in my posts.

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There is plenty of evidence that the texts we have about Jesus were written well after his death, not necessarily by the claimed authors, that they borrow quite a bit of text from one another without acknowledgement, and that they have changed over time. The truth about Jesus' life is very much in question.

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In old Jewish tradition it was common for students to memorize the teachings of their teachers. So I'm quite sure that they'd remember how everything went down. Jesus predicted that Jerusalem would be destroyed and it happend in 70 AD. Isn't that legitemate history?Also, there are New Testement texts found that date older than 70 AD.
How can someone who doesn't exist predict this?

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Shall we start with religious leaders who had plenty to gain from controlling their people? These are pretty obvious possibilities. Your lack of perspectie is showing.

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Peter swore and said he never knew him before his death on the cross.
All of the desciples ran and hid. What on earth would make them change thier minds? Why would they decide to preach the gospel and eventually die for it?

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It doesn't flow together perfectly. People have argued and killed each other, almost since the very beginning, over their inability to agree on what the Bible says. For example: does the Law still apply today? I ask because Jesus himself said he did not come to abolish it.

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Jesus said I come not to abolish the law but fulfill it. Not the letter of the law but the righteousness of it. Before the birth of Christ God said that He would bring up a new people with the law written in thier hearts. The Old Law was really a powerless negative.
It was a list of do's and don'ts. That law was to show people that they have sinned and that they needed to be saved from it. That's why Christ is called the Saviour, he came to set the world free from sin and death. Jesus nailed the law to the cross. Good works don't save us, but we do good works because we are saved. And because we want to.

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Yet there is a huge number of supposed literalists today who don't follow even a small portion of the Law.

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If someone is a literalist that doesn't make them a Christian, and neither does following a law. A person is a Christian because he has confessed and believed in the diety of our Lord Jesus Christ. When a person becomes a Christian then they will know it because they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

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Ahem. Christians are still a minority in the world and Mohammed's followers are growing faster.

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That doesn't sound like good news to me. Or to the "War on Terror" either.

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I could just as easily tell you that I can more easily see the hypocrisy, deceit, cruelty, and delusion of (some) Christians now that I'm an atheist. I spent the vast majority of my life as a totally sincere Christian and now, with the rose-colored stained glass windows lifted, I look back on all that time with regret. The same is true of MANY people on this forum. It doesn't just go one way, my friend. The world is not divided the way you were taught. There are good people on all sides of all fences (yes, there is more than one) and it's not easy to tell who is who. For example, I'm not your enemy, though I've used strong words in my response. I'm just telling it like it is.

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Yes I agree with you there are good people throught the whole world in many different cultures. I am not taught that the world is divided. I don't believe everything that I am taught it's a shame that many do though. No you are not my enemy, I have no enemies but Satan and his demonic army of darkness. I am so sorry that I can't prove this to you, but I know for a fact that Jesus is Lord and is returning very soon.

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Like what, exactly? Remember we're talking about claims in the Bible, so you need a source of evidence beyond the Bible. You can't use the Bible to verify the Bible.

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ok, tell me what is the test that you apply to a peice of literature or history to determine if it is accurate or reliable?

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It's texts clash with each other on a number of major issues, such as the creation account, virgin birth, Jesus' liniage, etc. You can read more indepth about these in the errancy forum.

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The virgin birth clashes with itself? Ok, Jesus's liniage is both from Mary and from Joseph. Jesus was not Joseph's blood son, but was still considered his adoptive son. So the Geneologies are from seperate family tree's. One Mary's one Josephs.

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The Jews in Egypt have no historical basis. No archological record, nore any record by egyptions exist. Likewise, There is no historical, archeological, or written evidence for Jesus

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The Bible doesn't contridict any legitimate history. Just saying that the Jews were not in Egypt doesnt prove a thing. Although I believe that the Bible and it's message are 100% true.

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Well.... It's obviously about mythic Godmen saving the world from an army of darkness, soooooo, seems kinda improbable to me

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Evolution sounds much more improbable in my opinion. Who said anything about mythic Godmen lol. And there is a real army of evil. Evil is as real as good is. I could say so much about it too

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Not to mention the faults in Logic. This is my favoright one, see if you can follow me here:

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God = Jesus.

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Jesus is the one and only Son Of God. God exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 3 Persons, 1 nature, 1 mind.

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So, the Gist of the salvation story is:

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God Loves us so much that he sends himself to kill himself to save us from him burning us up in a lake of fire. He did this because he loves us, so much infact, that if we don't belive in him, he will burn us up anyway.

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Name one perfect man besides Jesus. No one is perfect. We have all lied, had an evil thought or done some other sin. God is perfect and he is just. He is holy, he can't let sin near him. So anyone who has sinned (eveyone), can't live with God in heaven. Sin must be judged. God can't pretend that we haven't sinned. Jesus's death on the cross was a payment for every sin that would ever be commited. All we have to do is believe. God the Father accepted Jesus's death as a payment to all sin because Jesus never sinned, but gave his life for all of us.

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Another interesting logic fault comes in the Origional sin issue:

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If humans went outa control in the garden, why didn't God just destroy the world and start anew? Why all the pain and hardship. He coulda just hit 'delete' and spared everyone from hell.

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So why do we have sin?

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What would we be worth if he just created us and then threw us away? If he were to do that then we wouldn't have free will. He'd kill us everytime we sinned and then make us over again, and that would never end. Instead he provided a way for us to get closer to him instead of just tossing us in the trash. All we have to do is believe.We have sin because without the choice to choose good or evil, we would be automatons, no choice, we'd be foreced to do what's right. And that my friend, is not life. We'd be incapable of real love.[This message has been edited by ichthus33, 09-07-2003]

Yeah I belive that the Bible is 100% true. Just because I don't have all the facts doesn't give me a reason dismiss the whole thing. If we were like that with house hold items for instance, then we'd have to know exactly how everything worked before we believed it was there, like a TV for instance, do you watch TV? If so I bet you believe that it works. Even if you don't know every last detail about it.[This message has been edited by ichthus33, 09-08-2003]

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I can't let a comment like this slide. One, the spread of Christianity is just as disgusting to me as the spread of Islam apparently is to you. However, I don't equate all Christians with the ones who assassinate doctors in the name of God, or who burn crosses in the name of God, or who hassle scared young girls in the name of God. Yet, one bad seed in Islam and the whole group is faulted. You should be ashamed of yourself. Christianity has fueled more hell in its history than, probably, you are aware. It would take Islam centuries to catch up.

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If a so called Christian does such things he is not a Christian, he needs to repent and be saved a Christian would not do such things. Also read the Qumran. It is very clear that the true muslim is the terroist, and the peace loving ones aren't reading their Qumrans. The terrorist is doing what they were told by the Qumran. Don't take my word for it, read it and there is no doubt. It repeats over and over kill the infedels kill them! And they claim that they kill by self defense, if you say Allah isn't God you are attacking them so they say they have the right to kill you. This is all in the Qumran, read it folks. There is no such teaching in Christianity.And lol. I never called any one a dark soldier. Seems like that folklore effect is taking place here. lol
I said I am enemies with Satan and his demonic forces. You are not Satan or a demon, which are spirits.And one last thing John, I've noticed that you have a tendancy to take things out of context quite a bit.For instance:

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Jesus said I come not to abolish the law but fulfill it.
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And what does this have to do with the Bible not flowing together perfectly?

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My answer to that is: Absolutley nothing.Remember this, a text without a context is a pretext.[This message has been edited by ichthus33, 09-08-2003]

Not one person in the old testement was a christian. God had his purpose for doing those things, those nations wickedness had gone beyond measure. The Qumran says to kill the unbelievers. Read it.
The Bible does not tell anyone to go out and kill someone that doesn't believe. The message of the Qumran is to kill the infedels.
The message of the Bible is that we have all sinned and need to be redeemed through the blood of Christ. Sounds quite different to me.

You are right, it seems that I am wasting your time and mines. So this will be my last post. Just one last thing though. Just think what if evolution is true, what do I have to lose. A temporary life right? I'll die and then cease to exist. What if Christianity is true, and then what do the unsaved have to lose? Eternity in the Lake Of Fire. I'm sure you are aware how long eternity is correct? I dunno, just seems to be a worthless gamble to me.God Bless...