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Author Topic:   Did Jesus die before he was born?
John
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 91 (49740)
08-10-2003 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by truthlover
08-10-2003 9:05 AM


quote:
That particular page is on "Attis." It sounds exaggerated, too. Can someone help me with this.
Sir James Frazier, The Golden Bough...
Chapter 34. The Myth and Ritual of Attis. Frazer, Sir James George. 1922. The Golden Bough
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by truthlover, posted 08-10-2003 9:05 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by truthlover, posted 08-11-2003 10:52 PM John has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 91 (50127)
08-12-2003 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by truthlover
08-11-2003 10:52 PM


I haven't been following this thread very closely, so I'm not sure who or what you mean by "Justin and others."
What I find most telling about the 'pagan christs' is the sheer numbers of them. There are no exact matches but the similarities are enough to imply influence.
Have you seen this site?
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/getting_started_pocm.html
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by truthlover, posted 08-11-2003 10:52 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by truthlover, posted 08-13-2003 4:40 PM John has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 91 (54377)
09-07-2003 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ichthus33
09-07-2003 4:54 PM


quote:
First off, who is C.S Lewis?
The most famous pop theologian of the past hundred years, probably.
quote:
And also can you prove to me that what Jesus says in the Bible is false?
Do you believe everything that has not been proven false? I know it is bad form to answer a question with a question, but there is a point. If your criteria for accepting an idea is that it has never been proven false, then you must accept some other ideas right along with Jesus. For example, no God, not just yours, has ever been proven false. Hindu mythology has not been proven false by the same standards that Biblical mythology has not been proven false. What you've got here is actually a logical fallacy called a "Burden of Proof" fallacy.
Page not found - Nizkor
quote:
There is more proof that he is true.
Precious little, honestly.
quote:
What does anyone in the Bible have to gain by lying and making things up?
You believe that other religions are false, yes? Say, Buddhism? This means that Buddha and his followers lied and made thing up, yes? Why? Islam? Same thing, yes?
And if you can accept that these people lied and made things up, you can't object to the idea that people at the root of your religion would do the same and for the same reasons.
There is another option, however-- that the stories were not intentionally fabricated, but were embellished and altered as they were retold.
quote:
The author of the Bible is the Holy Spirit of God.
The proof being what?
quote:
How else could the Bible flow together so perfectly?
It doesn't. It is train wreck.
quote:
Over 200,000 people around the world are being saved every single day.
That makes me very sad.
quote:
That is just unheard of.
No, sorry, it isn't. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today.
quote:
God is making a great move in the world today through missionaries around the world.
Allah sure is!
quote:
No other religous figure has ever done anything like this and never will.
Mohammad? Islam? Hello!!! If growth is your criterion for choosing a faith, it is time you head to the mosque.
quote:
Because Christianity is not a religion of good works but rather a relationship with God himself.
That you believe this is unique to christianity tells me that you are utterly ignorant of other religions.
quote:
Good works are just the fruit of the nature of Christ.
Right. By there fruits you shall know them. The fruits I have seen have been rotten to the core.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ichthus33, posted 09-07-2003 4:54 PM ichthus33 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by mike the wiz, posted 09-07-2003 6:14 PM John has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 91 (54391)
09-07-2003 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by mike the wiz
09-07-2003 6:14 PM


quote:
Well, it is true people make things up to say, start a new religion, but at the time was it not a very dangerous message, (Gospel)when you look at the book of Acts, and missionaries today.
Big deal, mike. Dangerous idea are a dime a dozen. That does not stop people from having them and acting on them, nor does it stop people from following suit. The argument doesn't make sense. "It was dangerous so it must have been true." Think of all the heretics who have died for dangerous ideas. Not all of them could be true, so some of those people must have died for false beliefs.
quote:
And what does the above qoute have to do with allah ?
Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet. My response was to someone who, falsely believing that Christianity is the fastest growing ( or the poster's position makes no sense ), cited Christianity's growth as an indicator of its merit. By those standards, Islam is even more meritorious.
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by mike the wiz, posted 09-07-2003 6:14 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 91 (54421)
09-08-2003 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by ichthus33
09-07-2003 9:08 PM


quote:
In old Jewish tradition it was common for students to memorize the teachings of their teachers.
I've seen reference to this tradition, mostly by people making the same argument you make and when there is an obvious agenda it makes me wonder. Nonetheless, I haven't seen much good evidence supporting the idea.
quote:
So I'm quite sure that they'd remember how everything went down.
Why, then, do the texts vary? And they do vary, not only in style but also in content.
quote:
Jesus predicted that Jerusalem would be destroyed and it happend in 70 AD. Isn't that legitemate history?
That the Romans destroyed Jerusalem is history. That Jesus predicted it is not.
A further problem with this prediction is that it was a no-brainer. Given the history of the area and the politics of the time, Jerusalem was bound to fall. The Jews were constantly a pain in Rome's butt. There were revolutionaries all over the place. Anyone living there would have known that eventually Rome would tire of the trouble and send an army.
quote:
Also, there are New Testement texts found that date older than 70 AD.
As far as I know, there aren't. The earliest texts are estimated to have been composed right about the same time as the fall of Jerusalem, but the earliest manuscripts we have date much latter. A few documents from the 2nd century, I believe, are the oldest.
quote:
How can someone who doesn't exist predict this?
No prediction, or fortune-teller, required. The NT was written after the fact.
quote:
All of the desciples ran and hid. What on earth would make them change thier minds?
Sounds like they were scared.
quote:
Why would they decide to preach the gospel and eventually die for it?
No mystery. It is basic human behavior. After the fire cooled they came out of hiding and went about preaching. Of course, you assume that the cruxifiction subsequent events actually happened as told.
quote:
Jesus said I come not to abolish the law but fulfill it.
And what does this have to do with the Bible not flowing together perfectly?
quote:
That doesn't sound like good news to me. Or to the "War on Terror" either.
I can't let a comment like this slide. One, the spread of Christianity is just as disgusting to me as the spread of Islam apparently is to you. However, I don't equate all Christians with the ones who assassinate doctors in the name of God, or who burn crosses in the name of God, or who hassle scared young girls in the name of God. Yet, one bad seed in Islam and the whole group is faulted. You should be ashamed of yourself. Christianity has fueled more hell in its history than, probably, you are aware. It would take Islam centuries to catch up.
quote:
No you are not my enemy, I have no enemies but Satan and his demonic army of darkness.
Frankly, if you are right, I'd be one of those dark soldiers. Am I your enemy?
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ichthus33, posted 09-07-2003 9:08 PM ichthus33 has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 91 (54474)
09-08-2003 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by ichthus33
09-08-2003 2:50 AM


quote:
It is very clear that the true muslim is the terroist, and the peace loving ones aren't reading their Qumrans.
BS. Somehow, I kinda doubt you've read the Quran, and I am absolutely sure you know nothing of the history of Islam.
For example, I ran a search of the Quran for the term 'infidel.' I got four results, the first reads:
[002:109]Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could Turn you back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the Truth hath become manifest unto them: But forgive and overlook, Till God accomplish His purpose; for God Hath power over all things.
Or this, found in another search:
[002:062]Those who believe ( in the Quran ), and those who follow Jewish ( scriptures ), and the Christians and the Sabians, -any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
quote:
Don't take my word for it, read it and there is no doubt. It repeats over and over kill the infedels kill them!
Uh-huh... how come I can't find that part?
Lets look at what one Christian ministry claims to represent the violence of Islam.
Surah 2:190-193 "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress limits...And slay them wherever ye catch them. And turn them out from where they have turned you out; for persecution is worse than slaughter; But fight them not at the sacred Mosque unless they first fight you there; But if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more persecution. And the religion becomes Allah's. But if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression"
Blog et actualits en France et dans le monde
Lets parse the verses.
1) fight those who fight you -- clearly self defense
2) do not transgress limits -- be civil about it.
3) And slay them wherever ye catch them. And turn them out from where they have turned you out -- take back what was taken.
4) for persecution is worse than slaughter-- a cultural difference of opinion. Killing is recommended because death is considered to be more kind than life under someone's thumb. It is probably derived from bedouin ethics and I tend to agree. The intent, at least, is noble.
5) But fight them not at the sacred Mosque unless they first fight you there; But if they fight you, slay them. -- Pretty obvious, yes? Defend yourself if attacked, but otherwise do not fight in God's holy places.
6) Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. -- ah... slaughter is the reward for those that reject the faith? Not really. Read the next line. If they enemy stops fighting, the Muslim armies stop as well.
7) And fight them on until there is no more persecution. -- fight until your enemies leave you alone. I fail to see how this is overly vicious.
8) And the religion becomes Allah's. -- Islam is an evangelical faith.
And the clincher...
9) But if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression
The other evidence of Islamic hostility on the site is equally unconvincing. You should do your homework.
quote:
And one last thing John, I've noticed that you have a tendancy to take things out of context quite a bit.
I see.
If you trace the thread back ( which would be easier if you'd use the 'reply to' button at the bottom of the message rather than the one at the bottom of the page ) you'll notice that you, in post #58, made the following comment.
How else could the Bible flow together so perfectly? The Bible was written over a span of 1800 years, and over 40 people had a hand in writing it.
To which Zephyr, in post #63, responded that...
It doesn't flow together perfectly.
I made a similar comment in another post.
You, in post #68 quoted Zephyr's reply and responded with...
Jesus said I come not to abolish the law but fulfill it.
The context IS, in fact, about the Bible flowing together. And I asked what this statement had to do with that line of reasoning. You respond, "Absolutley nothing." Lol... And accuse me of taking things out of context. You lost track, not I. Even more interesting is that I now know the answer to my own question. You assumed that 'the Bible doesn't flow' was a reference to what I've heard called the old and new covenants, and you thought you'd nip that in the bud. I don't know what Zephyr intended, but I made the same comment and was not talking about the convenants. I was talking about simple internal factual errors-- inconsistent dates, conflicting genealogies, multiple and incompatible versions of the same story, etc.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ichthus33, posted 09-08-2003 2:50 AM ichthus33 has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 91 (54475)
09-08-2003 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ichthus33
09-08-2003 3:38 AM


quote:
The Bible does not tell anyone to go out and kill someone that doesn't believe.
You mean, except for every few pages in the OT?
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ichthus33, posted 09-08-2003 3:38 AM ichthus33 has not replied

  
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