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Author Topic:   Did Jesus die before he was born?
zephyr
Member (Idle past 2592 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 61 of 91 (54371)
09-07-2003 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ichthus33
09-07-2003 4:54 PM


Admin! Hey... can you delete these posts? I keep getting 500 server errors (coupled with abysmal response times) and somehow managed to quad-post... my bad....

[This message has been edited by zephyr, 09-07-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ichthus33, posted 09-07-2003 4:54 PM ichthus33 has not yet responded

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 2592 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 62 of 91 (54372)
09-07-2003 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ichthus33
09-07-2003 4:54 PM


I think this is the last dummy post. Somebody kill me.

[This message has been edited by zephyr, 09-07-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ichthus33, posted 09-07-2003 4:54 PM ichthus33 has not yet responded

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 2592 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 63 of 91 (54373)
09-07-2003 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ichthus33
09-07-2003 4:54 PM


quote:
First off, who is C.S Lewis? I've never heard of him or read any of his text.
C.S. Lewis is one of the best-known authors of Christian literature that ever lived. He's rather famous even among atheists. Chronicles of Narnia, The Great Divorce, Mere Christianity, The Abolition of Man - any of those ring a bell?
quote:
And also can you prove to me that what Jesus says in the Bible is false? There is more proof that he is true. On what grounds do you make this claim?
There is plenty of evidence that the texts we have about Jesus were written well after his death, not necessarily by the claimed authors, that they borrow quite a bit of text from one another without acknowledgement, and that they have changed over time. The truth about Jesus' life is very much in question.
quote:
We have to look at this in plain clear perspective. What does anyone in the Bible have to gain by lying and making things up?
Shall we start with religious leaders who had plenty to gain from controlling their people? These are pretty obvious possibilities. Your lack of perspectie is showing.
quote:
The author of the Bible is the Holy Spirit of God. How else could the Bible flow together so perfectly? The Bible was written over a span of 1800 years, and over 40 people had a hand in writing it.
It doesn't flow together perfectly. People have argued and killed each other, almost since the very beginning, over their inability to agree on what the Bible says. For example: does the Law still apply today? I ask because Jesus himself said he did not come to abolish it. Yet there is a huge number of supposed literalists today who don't follow even a small portion of the Law.
quote:
Over 200,000 people around the world are being saved every single day. That is just unheard of. God is making a great move in the world today through missionaries around the world.
Where do you get your figures? Last I checked, the fastest-growing religion in the world was Islam!
quote:
And it is very apparent that He is alive and well. No other religous figure has ever done anything like this and never will.
Ahem. Christians are still a minority in the world and Mohammed's followers are growing faster.
quote:
Because Christianity is not a religion of good works but rather a relationship with God himself. Good works are just the fruit of the nature of Christ. And any Christian can tell you that once you are saved, you know the truth and see the lies of the enemy clearer.
I could just as easily tell you that I can more easily see the hypocrisy, deceit, cruelty, and delusion of (some) Christians now that I'm an atheist. I spent the vast majority of my life as a totally sincere Christian and now, with the rose-colored stained glass windows lifted, I look back on all that time with regret. The same is true of MANY people on this forum. It doesn't just go one way, my friend. The world is not divided the way you were taught. There are good people on all sides of all fences (yes, there is more than one) and it's not easy to tell who is who. For example, I'm not your enemy, though I've used strong words in my response. I'm just telling it like it is.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ichthus33, posted 09-07-2003 4:54 PM ichthus33 has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 91 (54376)
09-07-2003 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ichthus33
09-07-2003 4:54 PM


First off, who is C.S Lewis? I've never heard of him or read any of his text.

Well, you have, you probably just don't know it, yet. C.S. Lewis is most noted as the author of the beloved "Narnia" books ("The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe", etc.) But he's also the author of a great many books on Christian apologetics, the most prominent of which - and the one the "Lunatic, Liar, Lord" argument comes from - is "Mere Christianity." Anyway, you more or less directly summarized an argument from C.S. Lewis. I suspect now that you may have heard it from somebody else, who didn't cite their source, either. Either way it's bad form to pass someone else's reasoning off as your own.

And also can you prove to me that what Jesus says in the Bible is false?

Well, all of Jesus's statements in the Bible appear in texts written well after his death, sometimes a generation later. I mean, if no one wrote it down for like 60 years, is it reasonable to assume that this record of Jesus's thoughts and actions could be accurate?

If Jesus had written the Gospels himself, that would be another case. But the fact is that the Gospels were written well after his death, sometimes by people who weren't even there.

There is more proof that he is true.

Like what, exactly? Remember we're talking about claims in the Bible, so you need a source of evidence beyond the Bible. You can't use the Bible to verify the Bible.

What does anyone in the Bible have to gain by lying and making things up?

Tell ya what. Go to http://www.google.com and google for "L. Ron. Hubbard" AND "easiest way to make a million dollars." (Hint: you should get something along the lines of "starting a religion.")

And it is very apparent that He is alive and well.

Oh? He's alive? Where is he, then? Where does he live?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ichthus33, posted 09-07-2003 4:54 PM ichthus33 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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John
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 91 (54377)
09-07-2003 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ichthus33
09-07-2003 4:54 PM


quote:
First off, who is C.S Lewis?

The most famous pop theologian of the past hundred years, probably.

quote:
And also can you prove to me that what Jesus says in the Bible is false?

Do you believe everything that has not been proven false? I know it is bad form to answer a question with a question, but there is a point. If your criteria for accepting an idea is that it has never been proven false, then you must accept some other ideas right along with Jesus. For example, no God, not just yours, has ever been proven false. Hindu mythology has not been proven false by the same standards that Biblical mythology has not been proven false. What you've got here is actually a logical fallacy called a "Burden of Proof" fallacy.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html

quote:
There is more proof that he is true.

Precious little, honestly.

quote:
What does anyone in the Bible have to gain by lying and making things up?

You believe that other religions are false, yes? Say, Buddhism? This means that Buddha and his followers lied and made thing up, yes? Why? Islam? Same thing, yes?

And if you can accept that these people lied and made things up, you can't object to the idea that people at the root of your religion would do the same and for the same reasons.

There is another option, however-- that the stories were not intentionally fabricated, but were embellished and altered as they were retold.

quote:
The author of the Bible is the Holy Spirit of God.

The proof being what?

quote:
How else could the Bible flow together so perfectly?

It doesn't. It is train wreck.

quote:
Over 200,000 people around the world are being saved every single day.

That makes me very sad.

quote:
That is just unheard of.

No, sorry, it isn't. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today.

quote:
God is making a great move in the world today through missionaries around the world.

Allah sure is!

quote:
No other religous figure has ever done anything like this and never will.

Mohammad? Islam? Hello!!! If growth is your criterion for choosing a faith, it is time you head to the mosque.

quote:
Because Christianity is not a religion of good works but rather a relationship with God himself.

That you believe this is unique to christianity tells me that you are utterly ignorant of other religions.

quote:
Good works are just the fruit of the nature of Christ.

Right. By there fruits you shall know them. The fruits I have seen have been rotten to the core.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ichthus33, posted 09-07-2003 4:54 PM ichthus33 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by mike the wiz, posted 09-07-2003 6:14 PM John has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 66 of 91 (54378)
09-07-2003 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by John
09-07-2003 6:04 PM


'What does anyone in the Bible have to gain by lying and making things up?'

Well, it is true people make things up to say, start a new religion, but at the time was it not a very dangerous message, (Gospel)when you look at the book of Acts, and missionaries today. Do you think people only act for selfish reasons John ?

And what does the above qoute have to do with allah ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by John, posted 09-07-2003 6:04 PM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by John, posted 09-07-2003 8:14 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 91 (54391)
09-07-2003 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by mike the wiz
09-07-2003 6:14 PM


quote:
Well, it is true people make things up to say, start a new religion, but at the time was it not a very dangerous message, (Gospel)when you look at the book of Acts, and missionaries today.

Big deal, mike. Dangerous idea are a dime a dozen. That does not stop people from having them and acting on them, nor does it stop people from following suit. The argument doesn't make sense. "It was dangerous so it must have been true." Think of all the heretics who have died for dangerous ideas. Not all of them could be true, so some of those people must have died for false beliefs.

quote:
And what does the above qoute have to do with allah ?

Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet. My response was to someone who, falsely believing that Christianity is the fastest growing ( or the poster's position makes no sense ), cited Christianity's growth as an indicator of its merit. By those standards, Islam is even more meritorious.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
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ichthus33
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 91 (54395)
09-07-2003 9:08 PM


Hi, I'm glad that many are interested in my posts.

quote:

There is plenty of evidence that the texts we have about Jesus were written well after his death, not necessarily by the claimed authors, that they borrow quite a bit of text from one another without acknowledgement, and that they have changed over time. The truth about Jesus' life is very much in question.

In old Jewish tradition it was common for students to memorize the teachings of their teachers. So I'm quite sure that they'd remember how everything went down. Jesus predicted that Jerusalem would be destroyed and it happend in 70 AD. Isn't that legitemate history?Also, there are New Testement texts found that date older than 70 AD.
How can someone who doesn't exist predict this?

quote:

Shall we start with religious leaders who had plenty to gain from controlling their people? These are pretty obvious possibilities. Your lack of perspectie is showing.

Peter swore and said he never knew him before his death on the cross.
All of the desciples ran and hid. What on earth would make them change thier minds? Why would they decide to preach the gospel and eventually die for it?

quote:

It doesn't flow together perfectly. People have argued and killed each other, almost since the very beginning, over their inability to agree on what the Bible says. For example: does the Law still apply today? I ask because Jesus himself said he did not come to abolish it.

Jesus said I come not to abolish the law but fulfill it. Not the letter of the law but the righteousness of it. Before the birth of Christ God said that He would bring up a new people with the law written in thier hearts. The Old Law was really a powerless negative.
It was a list of do's and don'ts. That law was to show people that they have sinned and that they needed to be saved from it. That's why Christ is called the Saviour, he came to set the world free from sin and death. Jesus nailed the law to the cross. Good works don't save us, but we do good works because we are saved. And because we want to.

quote:

Yet there is a huge number of supposed literalists today who don't follow even a small portion of the Law.

If someone is a literalist that doesn't make them a Christian, and neither does following a law. A person is a Christian because he has confessed and believed in the diety of our Lord Jesus Christ. When a person becomes a Christian then they will know it because they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

quote:

Ahem. Christians are still a minority in the world and Mohammed's followers are growing faster.

That doesn't sound like good news to me. Or to the "War on Terror" either.

quote:

I could just as easily tell you that I can more easily see the hypocrisy, deceit, cruelty, and delusion of (some) Christians now that I'm an atheist. I spent the vast majority of my life as a totally sincere Christian and now, with the rose-colored stained glass windows lifted, I look back on all that time with regret. The same is true of MANY people on this forum. It doesn't just go one way, my friend. The world is not divided the way you were taught. There are good people on all sides of all fences (yes, there is more than one) and it's not easy to tell who is who. For example, I'm not your enemy, though I've used strong words in my response. I'm just telling it like it is.

Yes I agree with you there are good people throught the whole world in many different cultures. I am not taught that the world is divided. I don't believe everything that I am taught it's a shame that many do though. No you are not my enemy, I have no enemies but Satan and his demonic army of darkness. I am so sorry that I can't prove this to you, but I know for a fact that Jesus is Lord and is returning very soon.

quote:

Like what, exactly? Remember we're talking about claims in the Bible, so you need a source of evidence beyond the Bible. You can't use the Bible to verify the Bible.

ok, tell me what is the test that you apply to a peice of literature or history to determine if it is accurate or reliable?


Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Yaro, posted 09-07-2003 9:24 PM ichthus33 has not yet responded
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 4538 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 69 of 91 (54396)
09-07-2003 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by ichthus33
09-07-2003 9:08 PM


A good test would be internal consistency, consistency with other texts during the time, consistent historicaly, and general probability of the account.

The Bible fails on alot of these levels.

Internal Consistency:

It's texts clash with each other on a number of major issues, such as the creation account, virgin birth, Jesus' liniage, etc. You can read more indepth about these in the errancy forum.

Consistent with other contemporary documents:

There are no extrabiblical documents that exist today with an account of Jesus. No Roman records of such an execution, etc.

Historical Conistency:

The Jews in Egypt have no historical basis. No archological record, nore any record by egyptions exist. Likewise, There is no historical, archeological, or written evidence for Jesus.

Probability:

Well.... It's obviously about mythic Godmen saving the world from an army of darkness, soooooo, seems kinda improbable to me

Not to mention the faults in Logic. This is my favoright one, see if you can follow me here:

God = Jesus.

So, the Gist of the salvation story is:

God Loves us so much that he sends himself to kill himself to save us from him burning us up in a lake of fire. He did this because he loves us, so much infact, that if we don't belive in him, he will burn us up anyway.

Another interesting logic fault comes in the Origional sin issue:

If humans went outa control in the garden, why didn't God just destroy the world and start anew? Why all the pain and hardship. He coulda just hit 'delete' and spared everyone from hell.

So why do we have sin?

Much much more


This message is a reply to:
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phil
Unregistered


Message 70 of 91 (54402)
09-07-2003 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by crashfrog
09-07-2003 6:04 PM


But the fact is that the Gospels were written well after his death, sometimes by people who weren't even there.

What? Written by people who weren't there? Explain this please.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by crashfrog, posted 09-07-2003 6:04 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by crashfrog, posted 09-08-2003 12:22 AM You have responded

    
ichthus33
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 91 (54416)
09-07-2003 11:56 PM


quote:

It's texts clash with each other on a number of major issues, such as the creation account, virgin birth, Jesus' liniage, etc. You can read more indepth about these in the errancy forum.

The virgin birth clashes with itself? Ok, Jesus's liniage is both from Mary and from Joseph. Jesus was not Joseph's blood son, but was still considered his adoptive son. So the Geneologies are from seperate family tree's. One Mary's one Josephs.

quote:

The Jews in Egypt have no historical basis. No archological record, nore any record by egyptions exist. Likewise, There is no historical, archeological, or written evidence for Jesus

The Bible doesn't contridict any legitimate history. Just saying that the Jews were not in Egypt doesnt prove a thing. Although I believe that the Bible and it's message are 100% true.

quote:

Well.... It's obviously about mythic Godmen saving the world from an army of darkness, soooooo, seems kinda improbable to me

Evolution sounds much more improbable in my opinion. Who said anything about mythic Godmen lol. And there is a real army of evil. Evil is as real as good is. I could say so much about it too

quote:

Not to mention the faults in Logic. This is my favoright one, see if you can follow me here:

God = Jesus.



Jesus is the one and only Son Of God. God exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 3 Persons, 1 nature, 1 mind.

quote:

So, the Gist of the salvation story is:

God Loves us so much that he sends himself to kill himself to save us from him burning us up in a lake of fire. He did this because he loves us, so much infact, that if we don't belive in him, he will burn us up anyway.


Name one perfect man besides Jesus. No one is perfect. We have all lied, had an evil thought or done some other sin. God is perfect and he is just. He is holy, he can't let sin near him. So anyone who has sinned (eveyone), can't live with God in heaven. Sin must be judged. God can't pretend that we haven't sinned. Jesus's death on the cross was a payment for every sin that would ever be commited. All we have to do is believe. God the Father accepted Jesus's death as a payment to all sin because Jesus never sinned, but gave his life for all of us.

quote:

Another interesting logic fault comes in the Origional sin issue:

If humans went outa control in the garden, why didn't God just destroy the world and start anew? Why all the pain and hardship. He coulda just hit 'delete' and spared everyone from hell.

So why do we have sin?


What would we be worth if he just created us and then threw us away? If he were to do that then we wouldn't have free will. He'd kill us everytime we sinned and then make us over again, and that would never end. Instead he provided a way for us to get closer to him instead of just tossing us in the trash. All we have to do is believe.

We have sin because without the choice to choose good or evil, we would be automatons, no choice, we'd be foreced to do what's right. And that my friend, is not life. We'd be incapable of real love.

[This message has been edited by ichthus33, 09-07-2003]


Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 91 (54418)
09-08-2003 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by phil
09-07-2003 10:06 PM


Written by people who weren't there? Explain this please.

What's to explain? Not every author of the New Testament was present to observe the events that they recount. Some of them are writing from second, third, or fourth-hand sources. Historically, we don't give too much credence to second (or worse) -hand accounts.

Heck, we don't even know who some of the authors are, even. Appeal to anonymous authority is another thing historians don't take very seriously.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by phil, posted 09-07-2003 10:06 PM phil has responded

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 91 (54419)
09-08-2003 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by ichthus33
09-07-2003 11:56 PM


The Bible doesn't contridict any legitimate history. Just saying that the Jews were not in Egypt doesnt prove a thing.

Well, it would prove Exodus wrong, for one thing. After all there's no evidence that the Exodus even occured. I mean, if it had, surely the Egyptians at the time would have noticed?

Now, Exodus being wrong may not be a big deal to you - unless you take a position that the "Bible is %100 true". After all it can't be %100 percent true if it's wrong about stuff, can it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ichthus33, posted 09-07-2003 11:56 PM ichthus33 has not yet responded

  
ichthus33
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 91 (54420)
09-08-2003 1:15 AM


Yeah I belive that the Bible is 100% true. Just because I don't have all the facts doesn't give me a reason dismiss the whole thing. If we were like that with house hold items for instance, then we'd have to know exactly how everything worked before we believed it was there, like a TV for instance, do you watch TV? If so I bet you believe that it works. Even if you don't know every last detail about it.

[This message has been edited by ichthus33, 09-08-2003]


  
John
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 91 (54421)
09-08-2003 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by ichthus33
09-07-2003 9:08 PM


quote:
In old Jewish tradition it was common for students to memorize the teachings of their teachers.

I've seen reference to this tradition, mostly by people making the same argument you make and when there is an obvious agenda it makes me wonder. Nonetheless, I haven't seen much good evidence supporting the idea.

quote:
So I'm quite sure that they'd remember how everything went down.

Why, then, do the texts vary? And they do vary, not only in style but also in content.

quote:
Jesus predicted that Jerusalem would be destroyed and it happend in 70 AD. Isn't that legitemate history?

That the Romans destroyed Jerusalem is history. That Jesus predicted it is not.

A further problem with this prediction is that it was a no-brainer. Given the history of the area and the politics of the time, Jerusalem was bound to fall. The Jews were constantly a pain in Rome's butt. There were revolutionaries all over the place. Anyone living there would have known that eventually Rome would tire of the trouble and send an army.

quote:
Also, there are New Testement texts found that date older than 70 AD.

As far as I know, there aren't. The earliest texts are estimated to have been composed right about the same time as the fall of Jerusalem, but the earliest manuscripts we have date much latter. A few documents from the 2nd century, I believe, are the oldest.

quote:
How can someone who doesn't exist predict this?

No prediction, or fortune-teller, required. The NT was written after the fact.

quote:
All of the desciples ran and hid. What on earth would make them change thier minds?

Sounds like they were scared.

quote:
Why would they decide to preach the gospel and eventually die for it?

No mystery. It is basic human behavior. After the fire cooled they came out of hiding and went about preaching. Of course, you assume that the cruxifiction subsequent events actually happened as told.

quote:
Jesus said I come not to abolish the law but fulfill it.

And what does this have to do with the Bible not flowing together perfectly?

quote:
That doesn't sound like good news to me. Or to the "War on Terror" either.

I can't let a comment like this slide. One, the spread of Christianity is just as disgusting to me as the spread of Islam apparently is to you. However, I don't equate all Christians with the ones who assassinate doctors in the name of God, or who burn crosses in the name of God, or who hassle scared young girls in the name of God. Yet, one bad seed in Islam and the whole group is faulted. You should be ashamed of yourself. Christianity has fueled more hell in its history than, probably, you are aware. It would take Islam centuries to catch up.

quote:
No you are not my enemy, I have no enemies but Satan and his demonic army of darkness.

Frankly, if you are right, I'd be one of those dark soldiers. Am I your enemy?

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ichthus33, posted 09-07-2003 9:08 PM ichthus33 has not yet responded

  
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