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Author Topic:   Did Jesus die before he was born?
ichthus33
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 91 (54424)
09-08-2003 2:50 AM


quote:

I can't let a comment like this slide. One, the spread of Christianity is just as disgusting to me as the spread of Islam apparently is to you. However, I don't equate all Christians with the ones who assassinate doctors in the name of God, or who burn crosses in the name of God, or who hassle scared young girls in the name of God. Yet, one bad seed in Islam and the whole group is faulted. You should be ashamed of yourself. Christianity has fueled more hell in its history than, probably, you are aware. It would take Islam centuries to catch up.

If a so called Christian does such things he is not a Christian, he needs to repent and be saved a Christian would not do such things. Also read the Qumran. It is very clear that the true muslim is the terroist, and the peace loving ones aren't reading their Qumrans. The terrorist is doing what they were told by the Qumran. Don't take my word for it, read it and there is no doubt. It repeats over and over kill the infedels kill them! And they claim that they kill by self defense, if you say Allah isn't God you are attacking them so they say they have the right to kill you. This is all in the Qumran, read it folks. There is no such teaching in Christianity.

And lol. I never called any one a dark soldier. Seems like that folklore effect is taking place here. lol
I said I am enemies with Satan and his demonic forces. You are not Satan or a demon, which are spirits.

And one last thing John, I've noticed that you have a tendancy to take things out of context quite a bit.

For instance:

quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus said I come not to abolish the law but fulfill it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And what does this have to do with the Bible not flowing together perfectly?


My answer to that is: Absolutley nothing.

Remember this, a text without a context is a pretext.

[This message has been edited by ichthus33, 09-08-2003]


Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Yaro, posted 09-08-2003 3:29 AM ichthus33 has not yet responded
 Message 86 by John, posted 09-08-2003 6:52 PM ichthus33 has not yet responded

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 4538 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 77 of 91 (54425)
09-08-2003 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by ichthus33
09-08-2003 2:50 AM


I was going to answer to your previous reply to me, but I find your ignorance, and selfricheous judgemntalisim too astonishing to not adress:

If a so called Christian does such things he is not a Christian, he needs to repent and be saved a Christian would not do such things. Also read the Qumran. It is very clear that the true muslim is the terroist, and the peace loving ones aren't reading their Qumrans. The terrorist is doing what they were told by the Qumran. Don't take my word for it, read it and there is no doubt. It repeats over and over kill the infedels kill them! And they claim that they kill by self defense, if you say Allah isn't God you are attacking them so they say they have the right to kill you. This is all in the Qumran, read it folks. There is no such teaching in Christianity.

Have you ever read the Bible?? It is probably one of the bloodiest books ever!

My favoright sicko passage, still being Gen 31:1-17

Here we have a heartwarming tale about how God orders moses to go out and kill a bunch of women and chilldren, take the virgins captive, and presumably rape them.

Oh so sweet and cuddly, all that nice Christian sentiment.

Whatever you may find vile and repugnant about the Qurans war stories, are no diffrent than those described in the bible. And your pathetic attempt at a justification by saying "no real christian would blah blah...." is just that, pathetic! The same claim can be made by the muslim, or any other religion.

Fanatical extremists exist in every grupe and your tradition has no place in pointing the finger. Much blood has been spilt in the name of christianity, in the Bible it'self!

Read the Old testament, read all the unspeakable things GOD asks people to do!!!

ok... enugh of that...

My next post will adress your previous replay to me. Stay tuned...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ichthus33, posted 09-08-2003 2:50 AM ichthus33 has not yet responded

  
ichthus33
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 91 (54427)
09-08-2003 3:38 AM


Not one person in the old testement was a christian. God had his purpose for doing those things, those nations wickedness had gone beyond measure. The Qumran says to kill the unbelievers. Read it.
The Bible does not tell anyone to go out and kill someone that doesn't believe. The message of the Qumran is to kill the infedels.
The message of the Bible is that we have all sinned and need to be redeemed through the blood of Christ. Sounds quite different to me.
Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Yaro, posted 09-08-2003 3:51 AM ichthus33 has not yet responded
 Message 87 by John, posted 09-08-2003 6:57 PM ichthus33 has not yet responded

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 4538 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 79 of 91 (54430)
09-08-2003 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by ichthus33
09-07-2003 11:56 PM


The virgin birth clashes with itself? Ok, Jesus's liniage is both from Mary and from Joseph. Jesus was not Joseph's blood son, but was still considered his adoptive son. So the Geneologies are from seperate family tree's. One Mary's one Josephs.

Yes, we have been up and down this argument in the forum. Fact is, it can't be marys line because the bible clearly says within the narative, Joseph who was son of Heli, then in the other, Jopseph the son of some other guy. Not to mention the fact that this totaly disproves the whole descended from david crap.

Belive what you want, but the amount of interpretation, and mental gymnastics involved ought to give you a clue that perhaps it dosn't say what you think it dose.

The Bible doesn't contridict any legitimate history. Just saying that the Jews were not in Egypt doesnt prove a thing. Although I believe that the Bible and it's message are 100% true.

The Jews were not in Egypt, no egyptian recorded their presense, the plagues, nothing. Egyptians kept very good history.

The Global flood happend while Egypt was at the peak of it's culture, yet it went on uninterupted, as did the Greeks, Chinese, Hindus, whathave you... none of them recorded a Global flood. So, that didn't happen.

No senseus by Herod was ever done, neither were first born chilldren killd, as the great record keepers that were the Romans didn't seem to nnotice it at all.

Evolution sounds much more improbable in my opinion. Who said anything about mythic Godmen lol. And there is a real army of evil. Evil is as real as good is. I could say so much about it too

I consider men who are Gods avatar on earth, walking around doing miracles, and claiming to fight usnseen devils, a mythic Godman. Evolution is at least an observable and scientificaly verafiable reality, if you would open your mind just a tad you may see that most of the world isn't deluded.


Jesus is the one and only Son Of God. God exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 3 Persons, 1 nature, 1 mind.

Name one perfect man besides Jesus. No one is perfect. We have all lied, had an evil thought or done some other sin. God is perfect and he is just. He is holy, he can't let sin near him. So anyone who has sinned (eveyone), can't live with God in heaven. Sin must be judged. God can't pretend that we haven't sinned. Jesus's death on the cross was a payment for every sin that would ever be commited. All we have to do is believe. God the Father accepted Jesus's death as a payment to all sin because Jesus never sinned, but gave his life for all of us.

What does this have to do with weather or not the Jusus myth is logical?

If God is Jesus, then he killd himself, to apease himself. Why does that make sense?

Not to mention the fact that you fail to see the primative basis for Christianity. The idea of blood sacrifice to apease an angry diety. Other cultures throw virgins into angry volcanos, or sacrifice goats.

Heck the Jews used to sacrificce animals to God. So tell me, why does God want a dead goat? Whats the point? I think that's just the sillyest thing I have ever heard.

What would we be worth if he just created us and then threw us away? If he were to do that then we wouldn't have free will. He'd kill us everytime we sinned and then make us over again, and that would never end. Instead he provided a way for us to get closer to him instead of just tossing us in the trash. All we have to do is believe.

ummm... to tell you the truth, if all this BS about hell is true, I would have rather not been born, Because God sure made it hard to swallow his crazy tall tale. Not to mention all the poor inocent non-christians who just happend to be born into other cultures. God should have niped it in the bud with Adam and Eve, cuz then he woulden't have to wory about hell.

It seems to me, that with your philosphy, God is wasting all our time. I propose all humans should stop having babies, because the less people, the less unsaved. Don't you agree?

[This message has been edited by Yaro, 09-08-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ichthus33, posted 09-07-2003 11:56 PM ichthus33 has not yet responded

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 4538 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 80 of 91 (54432)
09-08-2003 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by ichthus33
09-08-2003 3:38 AM


The passage I quoted to you was specifficaly against people who didn't belive in Yaweh. You can find dozens of other verses like it.

And your beloved Christianity is based on the OT, and the God is presumably the same. So he said to do those things!

If you had actually read the Quaran, and taken the context, you would have seen that those verses you revile are what mohamed tells his warriors to do when he was in bloody combat with the infedels. Moses does the same, David does the same, etc.

It's no diffrent. Now if some radical fundamentalists from either grupe want to apply the ltter of it to our time, then you got some violent terorists.

It has nothing to do with the books, it's the people who interpret them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ichthus33, posted 09-08-2003 3:38 AM ichthus33 has not yet responded

  
ichthus33
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 91 (54434)
09-08-2003 4:00 AM


You are right, it seems that I am wasting your time and mines. So this will be my last post. Just one last thing though. Just think what if evolution is true, what do I have to lose. A temporary life right? I'll die and then cease to exist. What if Christianity is true, and then what do the unsaved have to lose? Eternity in the Lake Of Fire. I'm sure you are aware how long eternity is correct? I dunno, just seems to be a worthless gamble to me.

God Bless...


Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Yaro, posted 09-08-2003 4:03 AM ichthus33 has not yet responded

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 4538 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 82 of 91 (54435)
09-08-2003 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by ichthus33
09-08-2003 4:00 AM


pascals wager...

I suppose that's one way to look at it. I myself never found it apealing, if you let that sort of thing bully you into a system of thought, who knows who else might do it to you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ichthus33, posted 09-08-2003 4:00 AM ichthus33 has not yet responded

  
Raha
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 91 (54445)
09-08-2003 9:11 AM


Another destroyed thread.
So another interesting thread was succesfully killed by absolutely useless discussion, which was there many times before.

Bismillah hir-rahma nir-raheem.
Alhamdu lil-lahi rabbil 'alameen.
Ar rahm'a nir-raheem.
M'aliki yawmid - deen.
Iyy'aka na'budu wa iyyaka nasta'een
Ihdinas sir'atal mustaqeem, sir'atal Lazeena an'amta 'alayhim.
Ghayril maghd'ubi 'alayhim walad d'al-leen. 'Ameen.

P.S.: That Lake of Fire might be good fun!

------------------
Life has no meaning but itself.


Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by mike the wiz, posted 09-08-2003 10:54 AM Raha has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 84 of 91 (54455)
09-08-2003 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Raha
09-08-2003 9:11 AM


Re: Another destroyed thread.
You have all missed his point though havent you?
He was showing you that the bible does not say 'kill your enemy'
but rather love him.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Raha, posted 09-08-2003 9:11 AM Raha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by zephyr, posted 09-08-2003 3:19 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 2593 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 85 of 91 (54466)
09-08-2003 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by mike the wiz
09-08-2003 10:54 AM


Re: Another destroyed thread.
quote:
You have all missed his point though havent you?
He was showing you that the bible does not say 'kill your enemy'
but rather love him.
It says both unequivocally in different places.

There are a lot of points flying back and forth here, and one of the major ones is that the Bible does not say the same thing about the same issue every time. That means it doesn't "flow together perfectly."

*****************************************************************

Pascal's wager indeed... I'll take my own wager any day over that one. I bet that if I live as if this is my one and only chance to do some good, love life, and love others, I will not regret it. If there is a supreme being watching over me, I trust that he/she/it understands my inability to make any honest conclusion regarding his/her/its existence and will make a decision about my entering any theoretical afterlife without regard to the multiplicity of confusing and quite evidently unreliable ancient mythologies and systems of rules that have been misused and abused by selfish and destructive human beings so much as to render all of them highly suspect.

Is that so unreasonable?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by mike the wiz, posted 09-08-2003 10:54 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by mike the wiz, posted 09-08-2003 7:55 PM zephyr has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 91 (54474)
09-08-2003 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by ichthus33
09-08-2003 2:50 AM


quote:
It is very clear that the true muslim is the terroist, and the peace loving ones aren't reading their Qumrans.

BS. Somehow, I kinda doubt you've read the Quran, and I am absolutely sure you know nothing of the history of Islam.

For example, I ran a search of the Quran for the term 'infidel.' I got four results, the first reads:

[002:109]Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could Turn you back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the Truth hath become manifest unto them: But forgive and overlook, Till God accomplish His purpose; for God Hath power over all things.

Or this, found in another search:

[002:062]Those who believe ( in the Quran ), and those who follow Jewish ( scriptures ), and the Christians and the Sabians, -any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

quote:
Don't take my word for it, read it and there is no doubt. It repeats over and over kill the infedels kill them!

Uh-huh... how come I can't find that part?

Lets look at what one Christian ministry claims to represent the violence of Islam.

Surah 2:190-193 "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress limits...And slay them wherever ye catch them. And turn them out from where they have turned you out; for persecution is worse than slaughter; But fight them not at the sacred Mosque unless they first fight you there; But if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more persecution. And the religion becomes Allah's. But if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression"

http://contenderministries.org/islam/jihadinquran.php

Lets parse the verses.

1) fight those who fight you -- clearly self defense

2) do not transgress limits -- be civil about it.

3) And slay them wherever ye catch them. And turn them out from where they have turned you out -- take back what was taken.

4) for persecution is worse than slaughter-- a cultural difference of opinion. Killing is recommended because death is considered to be more kind than life under someone's thumb. It is probably derived from bedouin ethics and I tend to agree. The intent, at least, is noble.

5) But fight them not at the sacred Mosque unless they first fight you there; But if they fight you, slay them. -- Pretty obvious, yes? Defend yourself if attacked, but otherwise do not fight in God's holy places.

6) Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. -- ah... slaughter is the reward for those that reject the faith? Not really. Read the next line. If they enemy stops fighting, the Muslim armies stop as well.

7) And fight them on until there is no more persecution. -- fight until your enemies leave you alone. I fail to see how this is overly vicious.

8) And the religion becomes Allah's. -- Islam is an evangelical faith.

And the clincher...

9) But if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression

The other evidence of Islamic hostility on the site is equally unconvincing. You should do your homework.

quote:
And one last thing John, I've noticed that you have a tendancy to take things out of context quite a bit.

I see.

If you trace the thread back ( which would be easier if you'd use the 'reply to' button at the bottom of the message rather than the one at the bottom of the page ) you'll notice that you, in post #58, made the following comment.

How else could the Bible flow together so perfectly? The Bible was written over a span of 1800 years, and over 40 people had a hand in writing it.

To which Zephyr, in post #63, responded that...

It doesn't flow together perfectly.

I made a similar comment in another post.

You, in post #68 quoted Zephyr's reply and responded with...

Jesus said I come not to abolish the law but fulfill it.

The context IS, in fact, about the Bible flowing together. And I asked what this statement had to do with that line of reasoning. You respond, "Absolutley nothing." Lol... And accuse me of taking things out of context. You lost track, not I. Even more interesting is that I now know the answer to my own question. You assumed that 'the Bible doesn't flow' was a reference to what I've heard called the old and new covenants, and you thought you'd nip that in the bud. I don't know what Zephyr intended, but I made the same comment and was not talking about the convenants. I was talking about simple internal factual errors-- inconsistent dates, conflicting genealogies, multiple and incompatible versions of the same story, etc.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ichthus33, posted 09-08-2003 2:50 AM ichthus33 has not yet responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 91 (54475)
09-08-2003 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ichthus33
09-08-2003 3:38 AM


quote:
The Bible does not tell anyone to go out and kill someone that doesn't believe.

You mean, except for every few pages in the OT?

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ichthus33, posted 09-08-2003 3:38 AM ichthus33 has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 88 of 91 (54481)
09-08-2003 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by zephyr
09-08-2003 3:19 PM


Re: Another destroyed thread.
'Is that so unreasonable? '

I didn't say you were not free to do this! Besides that's your business, I am not allowed to judge you.

'It says both unequivocally in different places.'

I guess my point is that Jesus said love your enemy, and if your honest you will admitt that, as for the other books, well I don't know if they say love your enemy, rather than hate him.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by zephyr, posted 09-08-2003 3:19 PM zephyr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by zephyr, posted 09-08-2003 8:45 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded
 Message 90 by zephyr, posted 09-08-2003 8:48 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 2593 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 89 of 91 (54488)
09-08-2003 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by mike the wiz
09-08-2003 7:55 PM


Re: Another destroyed thread.
quote:
'Is that so unreasonable? '
I didn't say you were not free to do this! Besides that's your business, I am not allowed to judge you.

'It says both unequivocally in different places.'

I guess my point is that Jesus said love your enemy, and if your honest you will admitt that, as for the other books, well I don't know if they say love your enemy, rather than hate him.


Point taken. You are absolutely right, and it's one of the greatest things Jesus said. (if he actually said it)

I understand you're making your point outside of the context of the OT verses with which you aren't familiar. They are hard for most of us to exclude, because they involve a whole lot of striking down your enemy and burning his town to the ground. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying there's more to the issue.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by mike the wiz, posted 09-08-2003 7:55 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 2593 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 90 of 91 (54489)
09-08-2003 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by mike the wiz
09-08-2003 7:55 PM


Re: Another destroyed thread.
By the way, the part of my post after the "*****" was in response to icthus's last post, which paraphrased Pascal's Wager. Excuse my laziness... I should have made that more clear. That paragraph wasn't directed to you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by mike the wiz, posted 09-08-2003 7:55 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
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