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Author Topic:   Omniscience of Divine Being.
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 95 (175981)
01-11-2005 8:06 PM


In my global history class a topic about Calvin the famous catholic church reformer after Luther was brought up. He is most known for his teaching of predestination. In the class chatter rose about him actually being right. Well I needed to see if what the man preached was in his source, the bible. I found a good two verses that agree with the theory pretty much.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:11 - In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Well, so far on my journey, I have thought that God knows what you do before you do it. But a few ideas and doubts are raised.
Is it really "free" will? Because if he knows than it sounds like a game and we are puppets being played out.
This to my understanding cannot be true, because of how we Choose our destiny, how every action that we make effects someone else, effects the world around us, in whatever way.
I have come to accept the idea that God knows the final result, where we end up by what actions we do. But he lets us choose it by what we do. I think I have adopted this philosophy froma movie I recently saw called "Waking Life", dream is destiny where a famous professor talked of this same subject for about 10 minutes. But when you think about it, the truth about the world we live in is tangled and hard to see through all of the chaos. But because of my belief in a creator certain things come into place, matters of faith, and tradition seem to be trivial. I think the issue of a divine being not only existing but why we are here sort of, the meaning of life maybe is the most important issue. When I look at the world I see a world straight out of "1984", and "The Lord of Flies", a world of confusion, corruption, and with no meaning. It becomes apparent that there is a Being, and rejecting that, blocks the spiritual journey. When I got past that a long time ago, I never questioned Calvin's main idea, never knew it was his. But now I am seeing tiny flaws. The Protestant Reformation focused on people's mistakes. Luther saw these and reformed the Church. I begin to believe that there are many paths to enlightenment, the one I am taking as a Christian is something that needs great thought I am finding out.
Is there anyone who can help me with this issue, try to answer the question of God's Omniscience existing, and Predestination. Are we Robots? What do you think? I am struggling as you can see, if anyone can shed some light on this please go ahead.
This message has been edited by prophex, 01-11-2005 20:06 AM

"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."
Ephesians 5:14
The destruction of what is beautiful to people of different cultures is going on.

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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 95 (175988)
01-11-2005 8:19 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 95 (175996)
01-11-2005 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
01-11-2005 8:06 PM


Predestination
One view was first given by Boethius ("The Consolation of Philosophy") and later endorsed by Calvin. This is the view that God is "outside of time."
What this means is that time is an illusion. To us it seems real. But God knows no time. For Him all is present. Our past is his present. Our future is his present.
Therefore, he does not "foresee" someone doing something. He just sees them doing it. And to watch someone doing something is not the same thing as making them do it.
The other view--a little less outlandish--is given by Jonathan Edwards, an 18th century American Calvinist. Here is an excerpt from his "Freedom of the Will":
Some seem to disdain the distinction that we make between natural and moral necessity, as though it were altogether impertinent in this controversy: "that which is necessary (say they) is necessary; it is that which must be, and cannot be prevented. And that which is impossible,is impossible, and cannot be done: and therefore none can be to blame for not doing it," And such comparisons are made use of, as the commanding of a man to walk who has lost his legs, and
condemning and punishing him for not obeying; inviting and calling upon a man who is shut up in a strong prison, to come forth, &c. But, in these things, Arminians are very unreasonable. Let common sense determine whether there be not a great difference between these two cases; the one, that of a man who has offended his prince, and is cast into prison; and after he has laid there a while, the king comes to him, calls him to come forth to him; and tells him, that if he will do so, and will fall down before him, and humbly beg his pardon, he shall be forgiven and set at liberty, and also be greatly enriched, and advanced to honour; the prisoner heartily repents of the
folly and wickedness of his offence against his prince, is thoroughly disposed to abase himself, and accept of the king's offer; but is confined by strong walls, with gates of brass, and bars of
iron. The other case is, that of a man who is of a very unreasonable spirit, of a haughty, ungrateful, wilful disposition; and, moreover, has been brought up in traitorous principles, and has his heart possessed with an extreme and inveterate enmity to his lawful sovereign; and for his rebellion is cast into prison, and lies long there, loaded with heavy chains, and in miserable circumstances. At length the compassionate prince comes to the prison, orders his chains to be knocked off, and his prison-doors to be set wide open; calls to him, and tells him, if he will come forth to him, and fall down before him, acknowledge that he has treated him unworthily, and ask his forgiveness, he shall be forgiven, set at liberty, and set in a place of great dignity and profit in his court. But he is stout and stomachful, and full of haughty malignity, that he cannot be willing
to accept the offer: his rooted strong pride and malice have perfect power over him, and as it were bind him, by binding his heart: the opposition of his heart has the mastery over him, having
an influence on his mind far superior to the king's grace and condescension, and to all his kind offers and promises. Now, is it agreeable to common sense to assert, and stand to it, that there is
no difference between these two cases, as to any worthiness of blame in the prisoners; because,forsooth, there is a necessity in both, and the required act in each case is impossible? It is true, a man's evil dispositions may be as strong and immoveable as the bars of a castle. But who cannot see, that when a man, in the latter case, is said to be unable to obey the command, the expression is used improperly, and not in the sense it has originally, and in common speech; and that it may properly be said to be in the rebel's power to come out of prison, seeing he can easily do it if he pleases; though by reason of his vile temper of heart, which is fixed and rooted, it is impossible
that it should please him?
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-11-2005 20:46 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 21 by DominionSeraph, posted 01-26-2005 6:12 PM robinrohan has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 95 (176008)
01-11-2005 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by robinrohan
01-11-2005 8:43 PM


Re: Predestination
quote:
What this means is that time is an illusion. To us it seems real. But God knows no time. For Him all is present. Our past is his present. Our future is his present.
This is eggactly like the Phllip K Dick Essay my brother showed me, "How to build a universe that wont fall apart in two days."
This theory makes sense. Can you provide and correlating bible verses? Just wondering.
quote:
an influence on his mind far superior to the king's grace and condescension, and to all his kind offers and promises.
So this example is showing denial of the offer of life, but his free will is not tested. No puppets.
quote:
...And that it may properly be said to be in the rebel's power to come out of prison, seeing he can easily do it if he pleases; though by reason of his vile temper of heart, which is fixed and rooted, it is impossible, that it should please him?
Alright, so this is basic, not really to do with the theory of seperate time.

"For I am the Lord your God, who churns up the sea so that it's waves roar-"
Isaiah 51:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by robinrohan, posted 01-11-2005 8:43 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 95 (176028)
01-11-2005 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by joshua221
01-11-2005 9:09 PM


Re: Predestination
Prophex writes:
Alright, so this is basic, not really to do with the theory of seperate time.
What it is saying is that, yes, we are all the products of environment and heredity, but we know in our hearts that that does not matter: we are still responsible for our actions.

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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 95 (176171)
01-12-2005 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by robinrohan
01-11-2005 9:57 PM


Re: Predestination
quote:
we are all the products of environment and heredity, but we know in our hearts that that does not matter: we are still responsible for our actions.
What would you say allows us to know this?

"For I am the Lord your God, who churns up the sea so that it's waves roar-"
Isaiah 51:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by robinrohan, posted 01-11-2005 9:57 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 95 (176261)
01-12-2005 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by joshua221
01-12-2005 8:41 AM


Re: Predestination
Prophex writes:
What would you say allows us to know this?
Our conscience tells us that we are responsible. We have a private experience of free will even though there are reasons to think we have no free will. From a religious point of view, assuming an omnipotent God, the Calvinist idea makes perfect sense. If we are materialists, I think we are forced to assume a lack of free will as well.
Edwards was saying, in response to the Arminians, that it is true a man might be "mentally bound" to a certain action due to his raising and his heredity: nonetheless, our whole civilization tells us, and our private experience tells us, that we are responsible for our actions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 95 (176673)
01-13-2005 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by robinrohan
01-12-2005 1:00 PM


Re: Predestination
quote:
If we are materialists, I think we are forced to assume a lack of free will as well.
What do you mean?

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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 95 (176675)
01-13-2005 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by robinrohan
01-12-2005 1:00 PM


Re: Predestination
quote:
If we are materialists, I think we are forced to assume a lack of free will as well.
What do you mean? (sorry if I cause any trouble for you to explicate)

"For I am the Lord your God, who churns up the sea so that it's waves roar-"
Isaiah 51:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by robinrohan, posted 01-12-2005 1:00 PM robinrohan has replied

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 95 (176792)
01-13-2005 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by joshua221
01-13-2005 6:14 PM


Re: Predestination
A materialist is someone who believes that reality consists of the physical and only the physical. What we call consciousness is a physical process only, according to the materialist. I would assume that a physical process has no free will. So whether we are Calvinists or materialists, there is no free will--except for that idea about God being outside of time (which Calvin did endorse in order to explain how you could have predestination and free will at the same time--but I don't know if this is mainstream Calvinism even though Calvin endorsed it)

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 11 of 95 (176800)
01-13-2005 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by robinrohan
01-13-2005 10:42 PM


Re: Predestination
robinrohan
I would assume that a physical process has no free will.
Why would you assume this to be so?

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 95 (176852)
01-14-2005 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by sidelined
01-13-2005 11:00 PM


Re: Predestination
Yeah, Sidelined, I'm not sure.
You throw the ball into the air, and it's not like it's deciding whether to resist coming down or not.
The same would seem to be true for the processes of the brain, but maybe you have a different idea?

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 13 of 95 (176896)
01-14-2005 6:23 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by robinrohan
01-14-2005 12:56 AM


Re: Predestination
robinrohan
A ball thrown into the air is obeying physical laws of motion that accont foor the forces upon it.My point is that we do not know yet well enough {though the studies are forthcoming} the extent of what specialized tissues such sas the brain do to accomplish such things as free will etc.One of the problems involves of course just how do you show that area of the brain you may be studying is related to free will?
I wil debate further on this but I need to get to work soon. I do have other information I want to share concerning this.Later.

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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 95 (177955)
01-17-2005 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by robinrohan
01-13-2005 10:42 PM


Re: Predestination
quote:
but I don't know if this is mainstream Calvinism even though Calvin endorsed it)
Modern Christians would probabaly rather not think about complexities like this... Sadly enough.

"For I am the Lord your God, who churns up the sea so that it's waves roar-"
Isaiah 51:15

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 15 of 95 (178660)
01-19-2005 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
01-11-2005 8:06 PM


4th demension
Is it really "free" will? Because if he knows than it sounds like a game and we are puppets being played out.
Well nothing is for certain, but my opinion is that God doesn't exist in our demension. It is hard for us to grasp this.
I had a vision awhile back, and I saw the erath, it was a globe, but I could see the whole thing. It was like being in the 4th demension.
God peobably exists where there is no time, so it would be hard for us to imagine being able to see the begining to the end, for a day is like a thousand years to him.
This does not mean he is in control of us. Things still play out for us, and him, but in his "time" we cannot understand.
Just my opinion.
First 3 words of the bible, "In the begining" would indicate that he created time just for us to exist.

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