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Author | Topic: A Simple Statement of Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||
Quetzal Member (Idle past 5892 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
And no, it's not mine. Our good Karl kindly linked to a long thread on christianforums. Although the 23 pages were mostly the usual tedious creationist arguments ("if we evolved from apes, why are there still apes..."), the thread contains a number of excellent posts by the resident theistic evolutionists such as lucaspa. However, at the very end of the thread, I came across a post by a poster named Gracchus that is simply the most beautifully written statement of faith I have ever encountered. Read for yourself:
Gracchus writes:
quote: Gracchus replies: From the stones I have learned the age of the Earth, and from the stars I learned the age of the universe. From the stones I have learned endurance, and from the stars humility. And I have learned that I am myself the stuff of stars and stones. And I am not separate from the universe, as my hand is not separate from me. In knowing the universe I know myself. These simple poetic sentences literally took my breath away. They show an understanding and vision of the majesty of the universe and Man's place within it that is both profound and inspiring. Although I don't share this person's theistic underpinnings, I do very much share his views in this matter. And I could never articulate it as well as this. Gracchus goes on to take creationists to task:
I don't quite understand why creationists rail so implacably and irrationally against the truth, but I see they take reassurance from others of their kind, when all anyone needs is the Lord. They pray to a God who needs worshipful prostration, like an emperor of old, and beg from Him, although they claim He knows their need better than they do themselves. And in the rather pathetic little idols they worship, I see an arrogance that masks fear, for their idols are made in their own image. Mostly they fail to notice this because they have driven the Lord from their hearts, and put him beyond the infinite sky, and they worship the idols they created from ignorance and fear. These are things I have learned from stars and stones and the truth of that inmost calm where I am rooted and dwell forever. I would be curious to hear how one of our resident creationists, say The General, or mike-the-wiz, or messenjah, would respond to this strong, confident believer - a person who appears to be quite sure of his faith and of his place in the universe. Theists like Gracchus I would be quite content to share my universe with.
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John Inactive Member |
grrrrr... damned pantheist!
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus Member (Idle past 3237 days) Posts: 402 From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA Joined: |
Turn a rock and you will find me,
split a log and I am there.
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truthlover Member (Idle past 4079 days) Posts: 1548 From: Selmer, TN Joined: |
Hearty amen to mr. Gracchus (or ms., sorry).
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: |
If his faith is so strong, why does he go on to attack a people of another faith with the 'second' statement ?
'And in the rather pathetic little idols they worship,' Here is the first downfall, because I am Creationist I am instantly judged. And also I have never worshipped idols. No offense Quetzal but anyone can come up with a few pretty words. 'and they worship the idols they created from ignorance and fear.' Now he carries on in judgement, not only do I have NO idols, but I am afraid and ignorant. Listen, you should get a better poem, personally this I think is crap of the highest caliber. To think the rocks and stars thing was a good start, but, 'stars and stones and the truth of that inmost calm where I am rooted and dwell forever.' Listen you can worship stones and stars your whole life, but in the end I take more joy in, Love, Friendship, helping those without, actions make a better poem, but it seems I have already been judged by this person.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1487 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
No offense Quetzal but anyone can come up with a few pretty words. Huh? No they can't. Really good poetry is hard to write.
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: |
Please read my statement of faith crashfrog, and tell me is such judgement of me as a creationist necessary ?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1487 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Please read my statement of faith crashfrog, and tell me is such judgement of me as a creationist necessary ? But haven't you criticized others for placing their faith in men instead of God? Or for raising science as an idol? Isn't it a little hypocritical to complain about judgement when you yourself have sat in it? (Judgement, I mean.) I mean just look at some of Theologian's posts to get an idea of the kind of creationist attitude that this guy is coming down on. [This message has been edited by crashfrog, 08-13-2003]
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: |
But when have I sat in the judgement seat, i have never said anyone is more guilty or sinful than ME.
Please find an occasion and qoute it, and I will deeply apologise and take it back. I know we make mistakes, but judging people is the thing I try to NOT do MOST. I beat myself up inside if I vere towards this road. This guy has accused me of worshipping idols, calling me pathetic and saying i am fearful and ignorant.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1487 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
This guy has accused me of worshipping idols, calling me pathetic and saying i am fearful and ignorant. Actually I think he called your idols pathetic. Honestly is worshipping an idol such a bad thing to be called? Especially from a person who doesn't think he's worshipping the same god as you?
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: |
When have I said science is an idol ?
'Actually I think he called your idols pathetic.' I do not worship graven images or idols! I'm shocked at you this time Crashfrog, have you read my statement, which doesn't accuse or judge anyone. I am losing respect for your statements rapidly at the moment.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1487 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I do not worship graven images or idols! But can't you see it's all a matter of perspective? If I don't believe in your god, your god is an idol to me. Honestly I don't see why the statement of somebody you don't even know is such a big deal to you. You're harping on the mote in his eye and overlooking the chip on your own shoulder.
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: |
'You're harping on the mote in his eye and overlooking the chip on your own shoulder.'
Qoute where I have judged anyone, I am on fire now, if I don't get put out quickly I've a feeling I will never respond to you again.Have you read my statement, have I judged you or anyone in it, reveal the chip on my shoulder quickly, i am seriously angry. PLEASE QOUTE my judgements and explain the chip on my shoulder .
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1487 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Well, a little searching turns this up:
EvC Forum: Ever lasting life with or without God. Where you say:
TO MY MIND I HAVE NOT HEARD OR HAVE SEEN OF ANYONE WHO WAS HEALED BY A FALSE gOD. Now, to my mind that sounds like you're referring to the gods of a bunch of other religions as "false", which would be another way to refer to idol worship. Laregly you seem to be of the opinion that the God of the bible exists, and the gods of other religious faiths do not. That sounds just a little judgemental to me - and not different from what that other guy said. I apologize if I've misunderstood or mistated your position, but I really don't see why you're getting so upset. A guy who believes in a different god than you is telling you so. What's the harm? I don't find it any more objectionable than when Christians tell me I'm going to a hell that doesn't exist. What's to get upset about?
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: |
I am upset though, because you used Jesus' words against me, and if I am guilty of judging then I am very upset.
When (the qoute) I said false god i meant gods made from wood or a golden calf, I have never said a person of another faith's God is false, I am referring to false gods as gods made by mens hands,statues e.t.cI have cooled down now, though if i have 'seemed' to judge anyone or their religion , then I apologise, I am sorry I never intended this.
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