Atheist Frendly Q&A

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1. When Joshua asked for a longer day, why did he aske God to stop the sun? Shouldn't he have asked God to make the Earth stop spinning?

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2. Why is the Nativity story different in each of the Gospels?

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3. Why was the gnostic movement quelled early in the development of the christian religion?

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1. Joshua's question is logical for someone who saw the sun come up on one side of the horizon and go down on the other. Knowledge of a spinning earth came later.2. Why do two people recount the same accident (for example) differently?
The twelve apostles: Peter, Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, James the Younger, Thaddeus, Simon Zealotus, and Judas. Matthew is most likely telling the nativity accurately, having been around Christ for about three years. Luke has most likely told the story from hearsay and embellished the way a poet may, in his case a physician. All accounts agree that Christ was born.3. The quelling of any movement is a political issue, not a biblical one. The Bible does not say 'thou shalt stop the gnostic movement', it says 'thou shalt love the Lord and your neighbor as yourself'. I have seen no exceptions to that mandate.I hope that helps.

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Pascal's Wager......nice try.

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Also, Paul's letters seemed to be an attempt to bring all of those far flung sects of christianity into one movement. Am I on to something, or am I blowing smoke?

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Paul's mission was to proclaim the good news. He made many trips to different places, some a great distance for his time. He wrote letters that serve(d) as reminders to those he addressed in person, as to what behavior is expected to follow Christ.
That these letters have a unifying effect is apparent.
As an aside, Paul was also a participant in the persecution of the early church, until a certain stopover on the road to Damascus.

To strike a little closer to home, is the christian moral system bankrupt without a Resurrected Christ, or is the morality portrayed in the New Testament independent of the divinity of Jesus?==================The Christian moral system is based on the ten commandments, which are an outline of God's character - the way he is.
These commandments are applicable for Christians of all time. Without this law, according to scripture, there would be no knowledge of sin. It is those rules that tell when someone has committed error and needs to make adjustments.1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresses the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.The law points out sin. That is all it is intended to do, point out error so .... as I said, adjustments can be made.
Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.In the civil setting, the purpose of the law is the exact same thing.

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That can't be right; Adam & Eve acquired knowledge of Sin through eating the forbidden fruit, but the ten commands were not given to mankind until Moses' time.

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The commandments existed long before Sinai, since the Garden, because without a law, there is no sin, and Adam and Eve sinned.There is a long litany of law-breaking since those two created mayhem, starting with Cain murdering his brother Abel.......no law, no murder.
The finer points surrounding that murder are even more indicative of disobedience.Denoting permanence, they were eventually written in stone. The bible speaks about them being written on the heart. A place of even greater permanence.

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Is god allowed to break these laws?

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I will understand your question to allude to God's methods in dealing with his enemies in the Old Testament, beginning with the war in heaven and etcetera.Is killing in war murder?
Passing sentence, does a civil judge break the law?Should a veritable act of self-defense be called breaking the law, and an attack on God would lead to some form of self-defense, or should he not defend himself, and should he not stop evil?Do you understand this? Your question would make me think that you will not. I hope you do.

Well, thank you. Great stuff, and better even is that you take it seriously, it's a pleasure talking with you.When you participate in criminal activity, you break the law, sin is the breaking of the law, Adam and Eve sinned and did, therefore, break the law, and the law was, therefore, around from the beginning. Without law, no sin, no criminal activity.Grace does not eliminate the law. Grace gives you another chance after you have broken it. The way a policeman might be gracious and not give you a ticket for an error.Without law, no sin, with grace, another chance, and another, and another, but not forever.God ordered the elimination of his enemies, yes it does sound horrid, but is an example of the rest of the story.Thank you again.Example:
Does grace give us license to break God's Law?
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid". Romans 6:1,2,14,15Sin is always the transgression of the law, and grace is always another chance.....great, eh?If the law only points out sin, how is it then, that we can be cleansed and saved from our sins?
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin". 1.John 1:7
Note: The law can only point out sin in our lives. It cannot forgive us for that sin. Forgiveness can only come through the sacrifice of Jesus. James 1:23-25 tells us that while a mirror may show us what we look like, the mirror will not remove any dirt that may be on our face! We need to wash our face with soap and water in order to be clean. When it comes to sin, God's law is the mirror that reveals it, and Jesus' cleansing blood removes it!See it?=================One more thing, added a day later. Under the law means?When you break the law, it is said you are under it, it has dominion over you and finds you guilty. The law cannot touch you, when you are a good citizen. It is all so simple.This message has been edited by PecosGeorge, 03-11-2005 08:30 AM

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An appeal to self defense as a rationale for an act of a god is inane. If your god exists and is as you think he is, it is impossible for him to engage in an act of self defense, since he can in no way be threatened.

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Perhaps it is - until you look at the meaning of self-defense.What does it mean to you? Let me start with guessing that it means defending yourself, which includes all that is dear to you, possibly all the way up to this whole world.Let me threaten your child, for instance, and go from there.You threaten God's property, you threaten him, like throwing a rock into the water and watching the circles.

OK!I don't engage in circular discussion and believe that is what Paul meant by debate in Romans 1:29, and is to be avoided."Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,"Thank you for your effort, I appreciate it much.*bold does not work without a 'b'This message has been edited by PecosGeorge, 03-11-2005 07:56 AM

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mikehager writes:

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Pecos George writes:

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...and should he not stop evil?

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Yes, he really should, if he exists. Might you give some suggestion as to when he is going to start?

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I'm not sure whether you really want to discuss the question of Evil or not. If you do, please let me know. It is a major theological issue and one that comes up frequently in discussions here between Atheists and Theists.

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I'm sure you feel the same way I do about how evil is stopped all the time, to a degree, or there would be nothing left of us at all.What is holding back the winds of strife?And when evil will be stopped completely, which it will, the fireworks will be astounding. More perilous times shall come, more evil.I think a thread on 'evil' will reveal some interesting opinions on what, exactly, that is.
God's blessings to you.

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An appeal to self defense as a rationale for an act of a god is inane. If your god exists and is as you think he is, it is impossible for him to engage in an act of self defense, since he can in no way be threatened.

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Absolutely correct. Similarly, any claim of wiping out folk in the name of Justice or Consistency are equally ludicrous.

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Are you sure about that? The implications are far-reaching. It would eliminate any need for effort to comply with God's requirements and do as we wish.When God defends his children, he defends himself, just like you do when you defend yours, or anything that belongs to you.Wiping out the folks in the OT, or asking to have them wiped out by his operatives, was an act of self-defense since he knew what would happen if they were allowed to remain, and what he knew would happen, did happen, a disobedient Israel quickly falling into idolatry shows this to be so.
Examples of making an end to evil. We shall wait for the rest of the story.

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I wouldn't go around asking...... at least, I don't think I want to know

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If the Old Testament is any indication on where and who God starts to pour out wrath, I'm guessing that North America (U.S. and Canada, I won't speak for Mexico) will probably be the first to go.

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Edited because I accidently posted before I finished thinking.

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I would include India and China, just for how they deal with unwanted girl-babies, before and after birth. 25 million in India alone.
Google 'Matrubhoomi', a movie made in India based on the subject and a story written on it.
This is an aside. It weighs so heavily on my mind and causes me great sorrow, so I draw attention to it whenever possible.

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Who is not his child?

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Ah, yes! Wanna ask around? Understand what you mean, I hope you understood what I meant and why God is a martial arts expert.

Perhaps the abstraction is too great and I am not concerned with it.The following may be a better example of God's self-defense. It deals with Lucifer's decision to overthrow the government of heaven.

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Revelation 12:7-10 A supernatural battle occurs between the Angels of God and the Fallen Angels of Satan:

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7 And there was war in Heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon; and the Dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in Heaven.
9 And the Great Dragon was cast out, that Old Serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the Earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in Heaven, 'Now is come Salvation, and Strength, and the Kingdom of our God, and the Power of His Christ: for the Accuser of our Brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God Day and Night.'

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Additionally after checking my trusted Merriam-Webster :

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One entry found for self-defense.
Entry Word: self-defense
Function: noun
Text: an act, instance, or means of defending oneself, one's property, or a close relative
Synonyms self-protection
Related Word self-preservation

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I find circular discussion distasteful and there is an admonition against it in Romans 1:29. And this discussion has become circular.This message has been edited by PecosGeorge, 03-11-2005 14:57 AM

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And yet god deals with Satan in bringing ill upon Job to test Job's resolve. Why would god have no problem with what is essentially a temptation by a mortal enemy? There is no sense of worry in the game they play with Job.God even does the bidding of Satan as to how to test that resolve.

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I recommend reading the Book of Job, again...if you have already. It deals with a prosperous, god-fearing man, who had everything. It is his relationship with God that draws the attention of satan who then accuses Job and God of collusion of sorts, and proposed that the only reason Job was such a devoted believer was because nothing bad ever happened to him, and that is why Job loved God.
The story unfolds and ends in exposing satan as a liar once again, who is the father of lies.The proposition was.......you take everything away from your guy, and we'll see how much he loves you.
The demonstration was.......Job loved God regardless of possessions, he gave everything he had and was prepared to give his life.God knew Job's heart, and satan slunk away at the end...defeated yet again.As Christians, we participate in such trials, some to a greater degree than even Job. The disobedient need tests of obedience if they profess obedience, lip service is easy enough. The struggle is between Christ and satan and Christians are the prize.I hope I have helped you.

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quote:I find circular discussion distasteful and there is an admonition against it in Romans 1:29. And this discussion has become circular.

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I think you are confusing "circular arguments" with "arguments you are losing".

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I find circular discussiondistasteful. I joined this discussion thinking it to be a means to answer honest questions, but fully aware there would be snakes in the grass.Amazing how easily and quickly they flush, don't you think?This message has been edited by PecosGeorge, 03-12-2005 09:38 AM