Atheist Frendly Q&A

Loudmouth asks ... There are several answers to that. First, assuming it is a true story, we would expect Joshua to ask a favor based on his knowledge. I doubt that anyone living at the time of Joshua really understood the nature of our solar system, so asking GOD to stop the sun was a reasonable request given what he would know about how the solar system works.If it were set in today's environment, then I'd expect Josh to simply ask for a longer day and leave the details (immense details I might add) up to GOD.The second explanation is that the story is simply historical myth. Getting the longer day is simply a Deux ex Machina plot device. It added interest, was a way for the storyteller to resolve the seemingly impossible situation he'd placed his lead character in. An interesting question and we sure don't have all the answers. It appears that there are several original stories, each slightly different. The authors of the different Gospels often drew from earlier works, and sometimes we end up with conflicting stories. You need to remember that we just don't know all that much about the origins of the various books of the Bible. For one thing, it was very common (and continues to be so right up to today) to write something and attribute it to some better known person. Another great question but in many ways only a partial one. We have pretty good documentation on why many of the heresies were suppressed. Much of the debate on those survive and can be studied today. Gnosticism was only one example. If you would like I can point you towards sources where you can read the various debates at the time. I warn you though it can get very difficult to follow some of the discussions without getting drawn into an unending series of sources. I think the issue of why the vast majority of early Christian sects were surpressed is both an important one and one where very little is known. There's a period of nearly 300 years where much of what was happening in the formation of Christianity is missing. It was not at all uncommon during that period (and indeed we can find examples of such behavior right up into the 20^th. Century) that all evidence of something abhorrent was just plain expunged.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Joseph Campbell is fascinating, isn't he. A great question and one I hope others will chime in on.I believe for many the answers is, as you mention, based upon the life experiences and culture of the individual. When faced with but a single choice there is really only two options, accept it or reject it. That leads to extremes regardless of which choice is made.As the options increase you move from a world of absolutes into one where there is shading, perhaps even hue. Then it becomes necessary to make decisions, to discriminate between a host of possibly viable choices. That can be frightening to some. I think a big factor in how that plays out deals with the presentation.I think part of the approach needs to be concerned with the components as simply the facts, the abstract as opposed to the specific. An understanding of what is Faith, what are Beliefs, what are Morals is as important as what the faith happens to be, what the belief happens to be, what the moral is. Once the person gains some understanding of those, it's possible to expand into the specifics as it applies to a given religion. As an example, at the second stage you might be considering "How should a person behave?"The next step, once those two are grounded, is to look at how such ideas developed over time. This is when you look at the various sources, the developments from around the world. It's where the concept you developed before on "How a person should behave" is compared with that same question as resolved by other religions. One example would be the Buddhist concepts of Right Thinking and Right Action. Another would be to examine the vast discussions in the Koran of interpersonal relationships.If the various philosophies and religions of the world are approached in this manner it becomes possible to concentrate on the similarities instead of the differences. The goal becomes one of finding commonality. The result is often that you gain an understanding of the message and tolerance for the medium.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Short answer = Yes!Somewhat longer one though is that many remnants still exist and some features have been included and incorporated into the mainstream theology. But Gnosticism is only one of many variations that were deemed heretical and certainly not the most prevalent.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Man, you guys is making an old man work hard. Lot's of great questions. As an ideal, I think the best way to view it as divinity and morality play two separate roles in religion. They are equally important but in two different spheres. That's the kind of question that keeps philosophers employed so I am prohibited by Guild Rules from giving you the answer. Well, I've said several times here at EvC that I believe that Christianity would be much the same even if Jesus was shown to be just another story told round the campfire. Usually I get a lot of flack for that from the more literalist Christians that come here (Where's Des?) but I believe it is a defensible position. The existence and life of Jesus IS an article of Faith for all Christians though and so for us, his life and mission is true and absolute. But let's look at the Moral System?Is "Love GOD and Love others as you love yourself" dependent on the literal existence of Jesus or the Christian GOD? Would it work equally well if the GOD was Thor or Allah? Sorry, Guild Rules forbid discloser of the answer. But does it matter? The final result for those of us living is how the moral system works within our society. Since similar Moral precepts can be found within both the religious and irreligious communities, they may well be convergent evolution. There is still the factor of teaching and promulgating the moral system and religions can provide a great medium for that.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Absolutely true.There are several things about Gnosticism that created gulfs from a Theological perspective. It was not declared Heretical for simply political reasons although those must also be considered.Under the Gnostic tradition, there is an actual difference in GODs between the pre-Jesus and post-Jesus worlds. All that is bad in the world is attributed to the pre-Jesus GOD, while all that is good is attributed to the post-Jesus GOD. In addition, the Gnostics were very exclusionary, believing that only a few who really understood the secrets of the Mysteries would be saved. If you don't have the secret handshake and decoder ring, your damned Bro!There were also many specifics that were disputed. For example, the Gnostics believed that Jesus, after his resurrection, lived among the disciples for an extended period. In one of the early Gnostic fragments, an eleven year period is mentioned. This conflicted directly with the beliefs of other sects that Jesus was with the disciples only a short while before ascending into heaven. Here is a link to one translation of one of the early Gnostic documants. If you read even a little of it you'll come away wondering if it was some document from a Masons Club or other secret society.Gnosticism, while the name seems to imply knowledge, is not based on knowledge as we might perceive it from a period in the scientific age. It is not evidence based but rather classic Mystery, where the members of the sect can worship those with the KNOWLEDGE but can never really become intimates.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Absolutely correct. Similarly, any claim of wiping out folk in the name of Justice or Consistency are equally ludicrous.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'm not sure whether you really want to discuss the question of Evil or not. If you do, please let me know. It is a major theological issue and one that comes up frequently in discussions here between Atheists and Theists.edited by jar to improve subtitle.This message has been edited by jar, 03-11-2005 03:08 AM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Absolutely sure. So you believe that it says "Love GOD and Love others as you love yourself or else"? Who is not his child?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I believe I understand but if so, I disagree. It might be useful in this thread for us to discuss the issue of GOD directed, condoned or performed violence.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I disagree.IMHO many believers ask too few questions.I hope that this thread will be productive for just that reason. A belief that is not challenged, not considered and not tempered will be shallow and weak. It is very good when questions are asked.If we look at the teachings of Jesus we find him asking a constant stream of questions. His whole mission seems to be one of challenging belief.One of the remarkable things about Jesus is how quickly he blossomed from total obscurity to one of the major teachers of all ages. If we compare some of the great teachers, for example Jesus, Confucius and Buddha, perhaps this will become clear.Jesus active recorded ministry (there may well have been more but it's possibly unrecorded or at a minimum, apocryphal) lasted only three years. On the other hand, Confucius became a renown teacher at about the same age as Jesus and taught for a period of over 35 years. Likewise Buddha began his teaching having reached enlightenment at about 35 and continued teaching for more than 45 years.One commonality about all three is that they taught by asking questions or telling parables designed to get the listener to challenge strongly held beliefs.This thread has two purposes. First is to help non-believers understand the point-of-view of believers. The second is to provide a challenge to believers that hopefully will get them to examine their beliefs. That does not mean that either believer or non-believer will change their beliefs, but rather that each will temper their belief. I don't have a problem with his position. As laid out in the topic title, this is Q&A.It's also not instant gratification.When some belief is challenged the first and most common reaction is to erect a barrier and retreat. But questions have a strange effect. Once asked they do not go away. Hopefully, PG will consider the question and think about it. A response may not be immediate, we are touching on some fundamental issues here.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The history of Jesus has several features. One is that he is symbolic of GOD's assurance of forgiveness for ALL mankind, those who are Christians and all others as well.I don't think most Christian religions place must stock in original sin anymore. Hell, it's unneeded, we're all more than capable of making up for any lack of sin at the beginning.But Jesus' life, death and resurrection is not a get out of jail free card. Nor is any belief in Jesus or profession of Christianity. So it gets a little more complicated at times. Actions speak louder than words.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Do they weed and prune, prepare the soil, add nutrients not available, water?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Great question.The story of the Exodus is a tale of the formation of something like a real Nation, and identity. It's the beginning of Nationhood, an identity other then just a religion. There's always the possibility that part of it's true, but if so, the truth would not resemble the tale any more closely than Disney's filming of the Battle of New Orleans resembled the real one.What is lacking is any evidence of the Exodus of a large number of people from Egypt, any indication that an Egyptian army was destroyed, any evidence of a large population anywhere in the area, and NO indication whatsoever of any major invading army taking over Canaan. No. There is no evidence of a large number of Hebrew slaves in Egypt or of any mass Exodus of any kind.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'm not sure if PG is still around and participating but I feel some reply to your question is warranted.In his letter to the Romans Paul is not using carnal in a sexual sense but rather to mean "Worldly". He is speaking of those who are more concerned with the latest toys than with doing what's right.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No problem. In fact, I hope this thread will become a place where just that type of question can be brought up and answered. After all, it was one of the few times Paul wasn't talking about sex. LOL

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion