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Author Topic:   Open Question For Jerry Falwell (and those who agree with him)
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 180 (315714)
05-28-2006 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Brian
05-27-2006 8:03 AM


King Jesus
quote:
Come Judgement Day, who will decide who goes to Heaven and Who goes to Hell?
We will! We decide that as we speak.
quote:
Jesus also killed every living thing on the planet except for 8 people on an ark and some animals.
He had to, the monkey bangers were wicked beyond all speaking.
quote:
Jesus also murdered innocent Egyptian children after He had made sure that pharaoh was incapable of agreeing to let the Israelites leave Egypt.
The Pharoh was quite capable of letting His people go. His own wicked mouth decided his judgement.
quote:
Also, in one of the most hilarious verses in the Bible, Jesus ordered the murder of 185 000 Assyrians.
2 Kings 19:35
And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.
Enemies of God and His people.
quote:
But Jesus (God) was a bloodthirtsy barbarian.
That is a lie. He desires not the death of the wicked, and takes no pleasure in it. Sometimes it has to be done for the preservation of mankind, and His wonderful eternal plan for man. If He let the wicked wreck it up, we all would be doomed.
Edited by whisper, : No reason given.
Edited by whisper, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Brian, posted 05-27-2006 8:03 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Brian, posted 05-28-2006 3:24 AM simple has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 137 of 180 (315722)
05-28-2006 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by simple
05-28-2006 1:52 AM


A king can kill whoever he wants to...
We will! We decide that as we speak.
So, there is really no need for Jesus to judge anyone?
He had to, the monkey bangers were wicked beyond all speaking.
How do you know this?
Anyway, God Himself acknowledged that the Flood was an over-reaction; you think He would have seen it coming.
The Pharoh was quite capable of letting His people go. His own wicked mouth decided his judgement.
This is incorrect.
The Bible explicitly states that God made it impossible for pharaoh to let the Israelites so that Yahweh could show off.
Exod. 7:3-5
But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it."
Exod 9:12
12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.
This one has Yahweh happily announcing that He is desperate to slaughter Egyptians to quench His thirst for blood.
Exod. 10:1
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them
Exod. 11:10
Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.
There are a few more verses supporting Yahweh hardening pharaoh’s heart, it is extremely obvious that this is what the Bible says, even Paul acknowledges it in the NT Book of Romans.
Romans 9:17-18
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Enemies of God and His people.
Love your enemies.
It is amazing how one can develop a mindset that will allow that person to justify anything, no matter how abhorrent, and help maintain their fantasy.
That is a lie.
The Bible must lie then because that is where I got my examples.
He desires not the death of the wicked, and takes no pleasure in it.
How do you know this?
I would suggest that Bible implies otherwise as God frequently took pleasure from the odour of burnt offerings.
Sometimes it has to be done for the preservation of mankind, and His wonderful eternal plan for man.
So, we have to slaughter almost all of mankind in order to save mankind? This seems a bit illogical to me.
You would think that a perfect being such as Yahweh would be a little more competent.
If He let the wicked wreck it up, we all would be doomed.
Don’t worry about it mate, it is only an ancient camp fire side tale made up to scare little children.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by simple, posted 05-28-2006 1:52 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by CK, posted 05-28-2006 5:29 AM Brian has replied
 Message 140 by simple, posted 05-29-2006 1:59 AM Brian has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 138 of 180 (315724)
05-28-2006 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Brian
05-28-2006 3:24 AM


Re: A king can kill whoever he wants to...
Hi brian,
this is quite interesting -
quote:
But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it."
Where is the free will in this? or are we about to get the usual "em..er.. it's OT and em.. it's different.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Brian, posted 05-28-2006 3:24 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Brian, posted 05-28-2006 3:13 PM CK has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 139 of 180 (315799)
05-28-2006 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by CK
05-28-2006 5:29 AM


Just another example...
Where is the free will in this?
I think this is just another example of how the free will defence is intensely flawed, but more so, it is another obvious example of how the Bible is a man made book, complete with human flaws.
The Bible is much like other ancient texts, the authors were not writing a critical history of anything, they were writing up a propaganda brochure.
There are so many examples of the Bible authors writing up ludicrous scenarios that it is difficult to pick out the craziest. A couple of examples that come quickly to mind is when the 2 midwives are ordered by pharaoh to kill all the male Israelite babies when they are born, their reply to pharaoh is that all the Hebrew women are so hardy that they give birth before the midwives arrive!
The author of that text was too dense to realise that the pahraoh's immediate reply would have been to say "so why do you have midwives then?"
Another one is Samson killing a thousand Philistines with the jawbone of an ass. Any semi conscious general would have called up the archers after Samson had killed 4 or 5 soldiers.
Great book, but not to be taken too seriously.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by CK, posted 05-28-2006 5:29 AM CK has not replied

  
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 180 (315862)
05-29-2006 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Brian
05-28-2006 3:24 AM


Re: A king can kill whoever he wants to...
quote:
So, there is really no need for Jesus to judge anyone?
Depends if they have yet had a chance to receive Him or reject Him or not. If they have, they have sealed their own fate.
quote:
How do you know this?
Recent evidence suggests that chimps and men have interbred, if I have read it right. If it is true, then where else in a biblical past would this bad thing have occurred?
quote:
Anyway, God Himself acknowledged that the Flood was an over-reaction; you think He would have seen it coming.
???? I don't think so.
quote:
The Bible explicitly states that God made it impossible for pharaoh to let the Israelites so that Yahweh could show off.
A natural concequence of going down the road of rejection of God, is that the heart gets hardened. God knows this. Yet, the Egyptian people still got a lesson in all this, despite the Pharoah. Nothing can stop God when He decides something is going to get done. Certainly not some bitter rejectee.
quote:
Love your enemies.
It is amazing how one can develop a mindset that will allow that person to justify anything, no matter how abhorrent, and help maintain their fantasy.
It was the possessed rejectee Pharoah that had a mindset that was abhorant. He wanted to hold God's people in heathen, pagan darkness and slavery when God said 'enough', let em go, pronto. Kids today in many schools are held in my opinion in heathen, pagan darkness and slavery as well! Watch out, God might stir.
quote:
How do you know this?
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Thats how I know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Brian, posted 05-28-2006 3:24 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by CK, posted 05-29-2006 5:50 AM simple has replied
 Message 144 by macaroniandcheese, posted 05-29-2006 9:23 AM simple has replied
 Message 145 by nwr, posted 05-29-2006 9:50 AM simple has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 141 of 180 (315874)
05-29-2006 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by simple
05-29-2006 1:59 AM


Re: A king can kill whoever he wants to...
quote:
A natural concequence of going down the road of rejection of God, is that the heart gets hardened. God knows this. Yet, the Egyptian people still got a lesson in all this, despite the Pharoah. Nothing can stop God when He decides something is going to get done. Certainly not some bitter rejectee.
Hold on - that's NOT what it says. God EXPLICITLY states that it is he who has hardnened the pharoah's heart - he says it at least THREE times. Why do you feel it's accept to twist what the bible says to suit your agenda? Don't you believe it's the world of god?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by simple, posted 05-29-2006 1:59 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by simple, posted 05-29-2006 11:30 PM CK has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 142 of 180 (315886)
05-29-2006 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by simple
05-28-2006 1:44 AM


Re: More wilfull ignorance.
quote:
The bad guys were not the missionaries or genuine Christians. Whether you like to call them Christians or not.
But what if they called themselves Christians, and most Christians felt exactly as they did at the time?
Who are you to tell them they were not Christian?
Maybe they were bad Christians, or misguided Christians, but Christians they most certainly were.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by simple, posted 05-28-2006 1:44 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by simple, posted 05-29-2006 11:33 PM nator has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 143 of 180 (315888)
05-29-2006 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by simple
05-28-2006 1:44 AM


a christian by any other name
Calling the killers Christians is as easy as saying that Christians are on a crusade now to wipe out muslims. That is not true. Certainly not missionaries. The bad guys were not the missionaries or genuine Christians. Whether you like to call them Christians or not.
if we are judged to be christians or "not christians" by the heinousness of our deeds, then we will all fall far short of the mark.
rather, we are defined by our belief. it is our faith that makes us christians, and our faith (and the grace of god) that saves us. all of us.
if we think their actions demonstrate their lack of genuine belief, then we will be held to same standards. and all of our errors and shortcomings and failures will be held against us as evidence that we do not truly believe what we say. we do believe -- but we are human, and we fail, and we sin nonetheless.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by simple, posted 05-28-2006 1:44 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by simple, posted 05-29-2006 11:44 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 169 by truthlover, posted 06-22-2006 3:44 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 144 of 180 (315903)
05-29-2006 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by simple
05-29-2006 1:59 AM


Re: A king can kill whoever he wants to...
[qs]???? I don't think so.
5 Then *the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."
he regretted ever making anything because man was so evil.
Gen 8:21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.
and then here he regrets destroying the earth and says he won't do it again.
Kids today in many schools are held in my opinion in heathen, pagan darkness and slavery as well! Watch out, God might stir.
so this time it won't be bullied kids killing christians but christians and "god" killing everyone else? sorry. i'd really rather god not move the way he does around children. blood happens. how could you possibly want this just because you have to put in a little more effort teaching your kids the stuff you want them to learn?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by simple, posted 05-29-2006 1:59 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by simple, posted 05-30-2006 12:03 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 145 of 180 (315916)
05-29-2006 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by simple
05-29-2006 1:59 AM


Re: A king can kill whoever he wants to...
Kids today in many schools are held in my opinion in heathen, pagan darkness and slavery as well!
I guess you must be talking about home schooling.
In the public schools, it is the teachers who are held in slavery

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by simple, posted 05-29-2006 1:59 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by simple, posted 05-29-2006 11:34 PM nwr has not replied

  
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 180 (316127)
05-29-2006 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by CK
05-29-2006 5:50 AM


Re: A king can kill whoever he wants to...
Why did He allow Pharoah's heart to be hardened? Because He felt like making the guy miserable? No. Because Pharoah rejected His message, His word via Moses. The word was rejected, not accepted or received. This is when God will send delusion. This is when a heart can be hardened. The decision is made already by the person.
2Thes 2b:..because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by CK, posted 05-29-2006 5:50 AM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by MangyTiger, posted 05-30-2006 12:09 AM simple has replied

  
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 180 (316130)
05-29-2006 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by nator
05-29-2006 7:37 AM


Re: More wilfull ignorance.
Most 'Christians' are not missionaries. Most Christians did not sell whiskey to natives or give them smallpox on purpose.
The ones who supported masacres were duped, and wrong in most cases, I would say.
Like Bush, and those who support him. The Arabs think it is a "Christian" crusade. I disagree.
Edited by whisper, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by nator, posted 05-29-2006 7:37 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by nator, posted 05-30-2006 7:58 AM simple has replied

  
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 180 (316131)
05-29-2006 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by nwr
05-29-2006 9:50 AM


Re: A king can kill whoever he wants to...
Ha. Well, let all the slaves go I say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by nwr, posted 05-29-2006 9:50 AM nwr has not replied

  
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 180 (316137)
05-29-2006 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by arachnophilia
05-29-2006 7:50 AM


Re: a christian by any other name
quote:
if we think their actions demonstrate their lack of genuine belief, then we will be held to same standards. and all of our errors and shortcomings and failures will be held against us as evidence that we do not truly believe what we say. we do believe -- but we are human, and we fail, and we sin nonetheless.
We shall stand in out lot, yes indeed. The bible is a good guideline. There it says our weapons are not physical, but spiritual. He that lives by the sword shall die by the sword. A tree is known by the fruits it bears. A good tree can't bring forth evil fruits. If we see evil fruits, we know the tree is evil.
If we are saved, we are saved, and will go to heaven when we die. But we can't call evil acts biblical, or what Jesus wanted and taught.The measure of 'Christian' is not in being numbered with multitudes of other mostly so called Christian people and what they think or do. Then labeling the whole package as 'Christian'. No. Some things, like nukes I believe, are so bad they should be destroyed. Those who use them don't do so at the behest of Jesus or the bible

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by arachnophilia, posted 05-29-2006 7:50 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by arachnophilia, posted 05-30-2006 6:05 AM simple has replied

  
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 180 (316142)
05-30-2006 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by macaroniandcheese
05-29-2006 9:23 AM


Re: A king can kill whoever he wants to...
quote:
he regretted ever making anything because man was so evil.
Right, man was so wicked He regretted it. So? He still fixed it, and sent a savior, and the plan is still going to be as planned.
quote:
so this time it won't be bullied kids killing christians but christians and "god" killing everyone else? sorry
Where is this again? Christians don't kill anyone. God did have to kill some to set the people free in Egypt, however, because they were so wicked they resisted His authority.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by macaroniandcheese, posted 05-29-2006 9:23 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by macaroniandcheese, posted 05-30-2006 10:05 AM simple has not replied

  
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