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Author Topic:   Open Question For Jerry Falwell (and those who agree with him)
lfen
Member (Idle past 2840 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 166 of 180 (320681)
06-12-2006 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by arachnophilia
05-31-2006 12:44 AM


Re: christianity, and evil
what good does death do for the dead?

Death frees them from the flesh and this earthly vale of tears (or is it a veil of tears?)

we should work to make heaven on earth -- live these lives as if they matter. because they do. the trick, i think, to living as a christian is to forget all about any afterlife and concentrate of living this one as best as we can, following christ's examples to the best of our abilities.

I've been reading today Be Still, It Is The Wind That Sings, a free pdf book by Arthur Osborne a disciple of Ramana. The book has a lot of interesting examinations of comparative religion.

one might say that religion has modalities, the vertical and
horizontal. Vertically it is man’s path to Beatitude or Liberation;
horizontally it is the harmonization of individual and social life
and is the soul of civilization. The vertical is the essence and the
horizontal the substance. Once vertical perishes the horizontal
becomes hollow within and is bound to decay.

Be Still, It Is The Wind That Sings pp 345
http://www.ramana-maharshi.org/

I think Christian's do overly emphasize the afterlife. That might be because Jesus was killed before he had much time to teach. I think he did say somewhere that the Kingdom of Heaven was within. This is the vertical dimension or what Osborne calls the beatitude and what I refer to as the awakening function of religion. The horizontal or social support is important but it is ego based and that is inherently suffering. The solution to suffering is being free of the ego and that can happen Now.

lfen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by arachnophilia, posted 05-31-2006 12:44 AM arachnophilia has responded

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 141 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 167 of 180 (321320)
06-14-2006 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by lfen
06-12-2006 1:23 AM


Re: christianity, and evil
I think Christian's do overly emphasize the afterlife.

quite. do some good here. worry about the afterlife when you're dead.

I think he did say somewhere that the Kingdom of Heaven was within.

quote:
3 Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."


that's from the gospel of thomas. it was also featured in the movie "stigmata," mangled together with verse 77 of thomas:

quote:
77 Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."


Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 16621
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 168 of 180 (321343)
06-14-2006 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by arachnophilia
06-14-2006 1:22 AM


Re: christianity, and evil
aracnophilia, quoting the Gospel of Thomas, writes:

"... Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

:) From the "gospel" of Tom Joad:

quote:
I'll be all around in the dark - I'll be everywhere. Wherever you can look - wherever there's a fight, so hungry people can eat, I'll be there. Wherever there's a cop beatin' up a guy, I'll be there. I'll be in the way guys yell when they're mad. I'll be in the way kids laugh when they're hungry and they know supper's ready, and when the people are eatin' the stuff they raise and livin' in the houses they build - I'll be there, too.


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truthlover
Member (Idle past 2222 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 169 of 180 (324948)
06-22-2006 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by arachnophilia
05-29-2006 7:50 AM


Re: a christian by any other name
The post I'm responding to is a month old, but I just saw it. I have to address this:

if we are judged to be christians or "not christians" by the heinousness of our deeds, then we will all fall far short of the mark.

rather, we are defined by our belief. it is our faith that makes us christians, and our faith (and the grace of god) that saves us. all of us.

Hmm. To quote your favorite Bible teacher, Arach, "They will know you are my disciples by your love for one another."

His brother, James (not sure if you believe it was his brother who wrote the letter, though) said, "Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

While that last quote is not from Y'shua (Jesus), I think it's obvious he would have agreed. He describes a judgment in which he tells the sheep that they'll be rewarded because they visited the sick, fed the hungry, clothed the naked, etc., not because of what they believe.

We may mark who is a Christian by what they claim to believe, but Christ marks them by what they do. "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father in heaven."


This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 141 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 170 of 180 (324954)
06-22-2006 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by truthlover
06-22-2006 3:44 PM


Re: a christian by any other name
Hmm. To quote your favorite Bible teacher, Arach, "They will know you are my disciples by your love for one another."

faith brings love for others.

His brother, James (not sure if you believe it was his brother who wrote the letter, though) said, "Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

faith brings works.

While that last quote is not from Y'shua (Jesus), I think it's obvious he would have agreed. He describes a judgment in which he tells the sheep that they'll be rewarded because they visited the sick, fed the hungry, clothed the naked, etc., not because of what they believe.

on the contrary, they visited the sick, fed the hungry, and clothed the naked because of what they believed: that it was right to do so. the judgement described is not christians judging other professed christians, but god judging mankind. if we judge others, we don't have that faith-instilled love.


אָרַח

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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3110
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 7.7


Message 171 of 180 (325044)
06-22-2006 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by arachnophilia
06-22-2006 4:22 PM


Re: a christian by any other name
Just to bring in another religons viewpoint.. in the Jewish faith, actions mean everything. SOmeone does not have to be Jewish to be rightous, but rather that is judged by their actions.
This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 141 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 172 of 180 (325055)
06-22-2006 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by ramoss
06-22-2006 9:44 PM


Re: a christian by any other name
Just to bring in another religons viewpoint.. in the Jewish faith, actions mean everything. SOmeone does not have to be Jewish to be rightous, but rather that is judged by their actions.

yes, i think people are misreading my original post:

quote:
if we are judged to be christians or "not christians" by the heinousness of our deeds, then we will all fall far short of the mark.

rather, we are defined by our belief. it is our faith that makes us christians, and our faith (and the grace of god) that saves us. all of us.

if we think their actions demonstrate their lack of genuine belief, then we will be held to same standards. and all of our errors and shortcomings and failures will be held against us as evidence that we do not truly believe what we say. we do believe -- but we are human, and we fail, and we sin nonetheless.


it is not about whether actions or faith make someone righteous. it is about christianity being defined by faith, not actions. we don't call someone a christian because they are righteous, we call them a christian because they profess belief. similarly, you define "jewish" by faith. it's not that someone has to be jewish to be righteous, it's that a person does not have to be righteous to be a jew.

christianity generally holds that faith is the bit required for salvation -- and i was arguing with one such christian that although faith brings good works, we cannot judge the faith by the works, because we all fail. christianity should hold that no one is judged at all, and everyone is forgiven. we are judged by our actions, but forgiven by faith and grace.

Edited by arachnophilia, : typo


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truthlover
Member (Idle past 2222 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 173 of 180 (325263)
06-23-2006 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by arachnophilia
06-22-2006 10:07 PM


Re: a christian by any other name
it is not about whether actions or faith make someone righteous. it is about christianity being defined by faith, not actions. we don't call someone a christian because they are righteous, we call them a christian because they profess belief.

You said earlier that faith produces love, works, etc. That's all fine, but here you say "we don't call someone a Christian because they are righteous," but Christ says that we call someone a Christian because they love one another. You can say faith produces love, but faith can't be seen. Love can be seen. Professing belief is utterly meaningless.

Thus, you may call everyone who professes belief a Christian, but a lot of people don't agree with you, and Christ is among them.

"Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father in heaven."

The profession of the Pharisees is that they were sons of Abraham. The profession of Christ was that they were sons of satan, vipers, hypocrites, disciples of hell, and several other none-too-favorable epithets.

I remember talking once with someone about faith in Christ, and a co-worker came in and joined in with me. The person I was talking to said to the co-worker, "I don't want to hear anything you have to say, because you're a hypocrite. Go away." My co-workers profession meant nothing to this person whose actions did not match up with his profession. I think most people feel that way.

Thus, I also disagree with your statement that:

if we are judged to be christians or "not christians" by the heinousness of our deeds, then we will all fall far short of the mark.

That is not true. Maybe none of us are perfect, but I have always been able to produce a list of people I knew who didn't fall short of the mark at all by my standards, and another list of people who are nothing but stinkin' hypocrites. Others are in between, but I've always known people who do not fall "far short" of the mark, but are wonderful representatives of the faith they profess.


This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 333 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 174 of 180 (325491)
06-23-2006 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by simple
05-30-2006 7:10 PM


Is it possible for someone to be a true Christian (ie believe that Christ is the Messiah), yet continually fail to behave in a Christlike manner?


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jar
Member
Posts: 30980
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 175 of 180 (325492)
06-23-2006 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by nator
06-23-2006 9:47 PM


Hell yes.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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nator
Member (Idle past 333 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 176 of 180 (325493)
06-23-2006 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by jar
06-23-2006 9:49 PM


I think so too, but Whisper doesn't, apparently.
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3110
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 7.7


Message 177 of 180 (325495)
06-23-2006 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by nator
06-23-2006 9:52 PM


Some people are just lightning rods for Irony. I just shrug, and let it flow.
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 141 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 178 of 180 (325501)
06-23-2006 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by truthlover
06-23-2006 10:37 AM


Re: a christian by any other name
Thus, you may call everyone who professes belief a Christian, but a lot of people don't agree with you, and Christ is among them.

"Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father in heaven."

yes, that's a good point. but this is the distinction i'm trying to make.

the first half of this verse describes christians. the second part describes who is getting into heaven. christ says that not all christians get into heaven.

I remember talking once with someone about faith in Christ, and a co-worker came in and joined in with me. The person I was talking to said to the co-worker, "I don't want to hear anything you have to say, because you're a hypocrite. Go away." My co-workers profession meant nothing to this person whose actions did not match up with his profession. I think most people feel that way.

yes, exactly. but the irony of the situation is that this is exactly the bahviour i'm talking about. others judge us by our actions, and the number one thing that makes people call us hypocrites is our habit of going around and condemning others, including other christians.

That is not true. Maybe none of us are perfect, but I have always been able to produce a list of people I knew who didn't fall short of the mark at all by my standards

no, by god's standards. by the law.

and another list of people who are nothing but stinkin' hypocrites. Others are in between, but I've always known people who do not fall "far short" of the mark, but are wonderful representatives of the faith they profess.

i promise you, they are still sinners. we all are -- and i don't feel this statement is at all abnormal. confession of sin is the very first step in becoming saved. all christians recognize that they are fallible, and have sinned, and continue to sin. alot of people play the righteous game, i know. and a lot of people are very nice and loving people. and that's what we christians should all be. but that love and compassion come from the recognition that we are imperfect ourselves.

there are people who represent christ better than others, yes. i'm just saying that our representation extended to how we act towards other christians.

Edited by arachnophilia, : typo


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 2222 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 179 of 180 (325645)
06-24-2006 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by arachnophilia
06-23-2006 10:45 PM


Re: a christian by any other name
there are people who represent christ better than others, yes. i'm just saying that our representation extended to how we act towards other christians.

At this point I'm willing to just drop the discussion. We've both had our say, and we'd just be repeating ourselves.

However, can you clarify--no, explain--this last statement. I don't have a clue what you mean by "our representation extended to how we act towards other christians." Maybe I'm just dense. If you're "just saying" that, though, then it's a summary sentence, and I guess I'd better stop and ask what it is you're concluding with.


This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 141 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 180 of 180 (325755)
06-24-2006 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by truthlover
06-24-2006 10:58 AM


Re: a christian by any other name
the original point was in in regards some christians looking at some other christians and saying "they are not real christians."

it looks bad when we condemn others, even and especially if those others are also christians. we may look at jerry falwell or pat robertson and decide that their lives do not bear witness to their faith, and that they are probably not the examples we should follow -- but we cannot say "they are not christians" or condemn them to hell.


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