Who to believe , Ham or Ross?

quote:

---

Likewise, I am a creationist but that doesn't mean I'm Ken Ham, I'm a completely different animal. I'm not a YEC SHraff. I WAS

---

It's not your belief in God, mike, that has ever been an issue. It's not even your past belief in YEC that has been problematic.It's your insistance that your religious beliefs have any evidence or logic to support them, that has been the source of most of our disagreements.

quote:

---

It's certainly not a science book nor does it present itself as anything of the kind, but it certainly does present itself as history: This happened, that happened, I did, he did, she did, they did, he said, in the days of such and such... etc

---

So, does that mean that any book, especially religious books, which present themselves as history are to be believed as literally true and historically accurate?

quote:

---

I'm starting to think this whole debate is in existence because of men and their interpretations of the bible. I think I'll go back to how I used to be. It used to be simple, the bible said that God done some things, and science gathered facts, and the two weren't really contradictory unless one went looking for problems.

---

You're just starting to think this? Anyway, I'll go one step further.I would say that this whole debate exists because a small but vocal minority in the US (and spreading, ugh) believes that they have cornered the market on Ultimate Truth (tm) and wish to force everyone to believe as they do by dressing up their religion in a lab coat and trying to sneak it by the US Constitution.

quote:

---

1) Because evos are blind to the tons of evidence and misinterpret it.

---

So, you are therefore saying that the hundreds of thousands of Geologists, Paleontologists, Physicists, Chemists, and Archeologists over the last 200 years or so have ALL been complete idiots by continuing to reject that a worldwide Flood occurred?I see, you are right because you are right, and they are all wrong because, you know, they are.I am begining to understand your reasoning here.

quote:

---

2) In a contest between God's word and Science, God wins.

---

Excellent, let's have you drink some poison. According to God's word, you should be able to do so without harm.Oh, and all believers should be able to cure the sick just by touching them. I imagine you have a line around the block of people waiting to be healed by you, since modern medicine is science-based and is therefore trumped by the bible.Mark16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

quote:

---

Give me an example of what you have in mind and I'll tell you what I think. And I mean an example of something that PRESENTS ITSELF as true history to be taken as true history. Don't just say "Koran" and leave it to me to tell you that it doesn't present itself as a history, but as a compilation of teachings.

---

OK, what how about the Iliad?

quote:

---

Everything about the Bible presents itself as fact, every author of every historical book. Those who try to pretend it is really fiction are the fiction-makers.

---

So, it must be true that you can drink poison and not be harmed, then, right?

quote:

---

I guess 3000 year track record of its having been taken as true history isn't evidence in these parts, huh?

---

Does this mean that if I find a book with a track record of longer than 3,000 years of being taken as true history, you will consider it "evidence" of some reality?The Epic of Gilgamesh and the Sumerian civilization date from around 3100 BCE.

quote:

---

You guys are a riot. What a joke. By your standards nothing whatever is proof EXCEPT your own sometimes somewhat scientific guesses extrapolated from the present to the distant past which can't be tested, proved, replicated or falsified.

---

Faith, you have made this claim numerous times, and it is false.I've begun a new thread discussing if the ToE is scientific or not.Please join me there and we can discuss why it is you think the above.

quote:

---

It is mostly instructions, not things to believe, but things to obey. The Bible on the other hand is mostly things to believe.

---

Except the whole of Leviticus.And a lot of what Paul writes.But anyway, so what?Are you saying that people believe in the bible because it's filled with things to believe?

quote:

---

Well, there it is, the proof that the Deconstructionists have destroyed all truth and reality. Wow. They've done their work well. You need material evidence, material proof for everything. No longer is anyone taught how to judge the integrity of a report.

​

I can tell they're honest men and I can tell they are real human beings and nobody's fiction. If you can't tell it, I'm sorry, really sorry. Nothing else to say.

---

So, are people who's minds are fooled by optical illusions dishonest and lacking in integrity?Also does this mean that you will be drinking poison without harm and healing the ill by touching them with your hands sometime soon?If you do these things under normal experimental controls, I will convert to your version of Christianity immediately.If you cannot, then you have to admit that part of the Bible is wrong.

quote:

---

Well, at least the universe itself is consistent and accurate, but I can't say the same for the fallible human beings who study it fallibly and make fallible theories about it. Which is exactly why God had mercy on us miserable dunderheads and gave us His word to steer us right.

---

Faith, do you think DNA paternity tests are accurate?Yes or no is all I need as an answer.

I would say, "caesar".

I'd really like to know if you are going to be drinking poison any time soon without harm, and curing the sick by touching them, like the Bible says you can?

quote:

---

You really can't judge the writer's honesty, sincerity, integrity, groundedness, grasp of reality, concern with fact etc. from his writing?

​

That is quite a handicap.

---

I'd really like you to determine the "honesty, sincerity, integrity, groundedness, grasp of reality, concern with fact" from the above story, Faith.

quote:

---

I don't play idiot games about serious subjects,

---

How is this an "idiot game"? Please explain.

quote:

---

and if you don't grasp that it is an idiot game you are challenging me with, I am very sorry for you.

---

That's nice, but irrelevant.

quote:

---

I fervently hope that this sort of needling

---

How is it "needling"? Please explain.

quote:

---

ditsy

---

How is it "ditsy"? Please explain.

quote:

---

trivia is not respected by Admin as "science." Good grief.

---

Look, you can throw around all the bombast and drama queen stuff all you want, but we know your game now Faith, we can't be baited into losing our focus.I explained all of this to you in another thread last month.You make very, very definitive, specific factual claims.What you describe as "needling" or asking many annoying questioning is exactly what science-minded people do. We pick apart claims and examine them from every angle in order to see if they have any flaws.Why you expect people to just nod and accept everything you say as "obviously true" is a mystery to me, and to most of the rest of us I think.We could just ignore you, you know, and you could just leave, since you seem to get so angry, agitated, and upset. Nobody is forcing you to do anything at all.