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Author
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Topic: Who to believe , Ham or Ross?
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 8 of 223 (194801)
03-27-2005 8:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
03-27-2005 1:28 AM
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Re: How much agreement?
What is the creationist consensus on the literal Biblical report of the Flood? I doubt that there is a consensus. For example,I'm quite sure that it never happened. You seem to believe it did. I would refuse to accept any rendition that included the flood because it would make GOD a liar, while you might cite the exact same reason to support your belief.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by Faith, posted 03-27-2005 1:28 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 10 by Faith, posted 03-27-2005 7:41 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 11 of 223 (194868)
03-27-2005 8:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
03-27-2005 7:41 PM
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Re: How much agreement?
It depends on what you're talking about. It's obviously the work of man, that's not even a question. What it's not is a science book or history book. Much of it's not factual and has never really been taken as factual by many. For example St. Augustine wrote on the relationship between science and the Bible in the 4 th. Century AD. Even then he realized, as did most folk, that the accounts such as the creation story in Genesis were never meant to be taken factually and that when specifics in the Bible ran counter to what was seen in evidence or through science that the scientific explanation would have to be accepted over the Biblical one. Any other interpretation, as I said, makes GOD a liar. I believe the Bible is inspired work, but in theology, not in science.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by Faith, posted 03-27-2005 7:41 PM | | Faith has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 13 of 223 (194873)
03-27-2005 8:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 12 by Buzsaw
03-27-2005 8:25 PM
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Re: How much agreement?
So as I understand you, Jar, any other interpretation of scripture than yours makes God a liar. Is that a correct assumption. Other than my interpretation? No. But there are many interpretations that DO make GOD out to be a liar.
Btw, Jar, I'm assuming by how you've posted over the time you've been here that there are only two supernatural events in the Bible, the virgin birth and the bodily resurrection of Jesus. All other implication of miracle or the supernatural in the Bible is fable. Is that correct? Well, the Virgin Birth is certainly open to question. And there are other instances that, if factual would be considered miraculous.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by Buzsaw, posted 03-27-2005 8:25 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 03-27-2005 9:30 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 16 of 223 (194879)
03-27-2005 9:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
03-27-2005 9:03 PM
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Re: How much agreement?
well, many words but they all boil down to you wanting to believe certain things mentioned in the Bible happened. That's fine if that's your belief. You mentioned a few things ...
If the Flood didn't happen then why should we believe that anything else the Bible reports happened either, say the captivity in Egypt and the Exodus, and the pillars of fire and cloud, and Moses getting the Commandments from God on Sinai, and the settling of the Promised Land, and the miracles of the Book of Judges and David's killing Goliath with a slingshot and the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ? All these things are described as historical occurrences. Let me run down the list if I may.
- captivity in Egypt. No indication it ever happened.
- Exodus. If it happened it bears no resemblance to the story in the Bible.
- Moses and the 10 Commandments. Almost certainly apocryphal.
- pilars of fire etc. Yup, folklore.
- settling of the promised land. If by that you mean some conquest of Canaan, then almost certainly didn't happen.
- most of the rest are also simply folklore.
- life, death and resurrection of Jesus, most likely true.
But it doesn't really matter if ANY of them are true. The lessons therein, what GOD wants us to learn and do is still true. The Map is not the Territory! The Bible is not GOD! GOD is not Christianity and Christianity is not GOD! This message has been edited by jar, 03-27-2005 08:49 PM
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by Faith, posted 03-27-2005 9:03 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 17 by Faith, posted 03-27-2005 9:27 PM | | jar has not replied | | | Message 23 by Faith, posted 03-28-2005 5:52 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 19 of 223 (194884)
03-27-2005 9:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 18 by Buzsaw
03-27-2005 9:30 PM
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Re: How much agreement?
Oh. I've noticed you've used this phrase often when you have a different interpretation than others. So should I revise to assume that whenever interpretation is different than yours, God then, is being made a liar by the ones who disagree with your interpretation? No, not always. I've found many that disagree with me in many areas but that didn't make GOD out to be a liar. But a creation 6000 years ago, the flood, the Exodus, the creation myth as described (in fact either of the creation myths in Genesis) would definitely make GOD out to be a liar.
Oh. So when you said you believe the Nicean Creed, you didn't mean the whole creed and it's now down to the bodily resurrection of Jesus? I happen to believe it but I realize that is a personal belief. I can certainly see how anyone could doubt it.
But my assumption has been from what you've posted that you don't consider any of them to be miraculous. Is that correct? Depends on the incident. For example Joshua's long day was not a miracle, it just never happened. Tales of Jesus healing the sick, turning wine into water, raising the dead would most certainly be miracles if they ever happened.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 03-27-2005 9:30 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 26 of 223 (195029)
03-28-2005 7:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
03-28-2005 5:52 PM
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Re: How much agreement?
Just curious. What lessons might we be expected to learn from a false tale about a gigantic Flood? The same lessons you'd learn if it had happened.
A Flood in fact out which is said to have been saved only eight people, and from which the rest of the Bible proceeds assuming it to have been the case. What can we learn from this? That the authors new a good plot device even if they had to steal it from early works. It's a parable, a morality play.
That baldfaced lies are useful for instruction, even though the God they're about said "You shall not bear false witness"? It's a parable.
No, but we do expect a good map to guide us where we want to go. The miserable excuse for a map you think the Bible is would get us lost at every turn. Your unsupported assertion.
Huh? I guess you mean he's also Allah and Krishna and so on? Funny then that he disagrees with them all so many times in the Bible. Got to choose one or none as they all contradict each other. Can't all be the same God. Really? Where do they disagree?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 23 by Faith, posted 03-28-2005 5:52 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 31 by Faith, posted 03-28-2005 9:59 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 36 of 223 (195074)
03-28-2005 10:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
03-28-2005 9:59 PM
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Re: How much agreement?
The lesson for the Great Unwetting? It's a morality and obedience story. It's an exaggeration to get folk to think about what it means to obey. It's a classic warning story just like the Pied Piper of Hamelin.
Nothing very serious, nothing we really have to worry about I guess, as God didn't REALLY destroy everybody in a Flood and doesn't REALLY intend to destroy the world again, right? Absodamnlutely. GOD is not some bling-bling pimpdaddy that will get all upset if somebody disrespects him.
There is not the SLIGHTEST clue that it is a parable. Absodamnlutely. One dead giveaway is that there isn't one story but at least two. Just like the Creation myths, the flood myths are simply anthologies of folktales.
I have to support the fact that if you can't trust parts of a map it's no longer useful as a map? LOL. You'll have some problems then. A map is almost always inaccurate and behind times. Roads are under repair, there are detours and bridges out. If the map shows a bridge are you gonna trust the map and drive over it even if it's gone? LOL.
Allah has no Son, neither religion offers a Savior who died for our sins. That's enough for starters. Drivel. The GOD's still the same. The lessons are still the same.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 31 by Faith, posted 03-28-2005 9:59 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 37 by Faith, posted 03-28-2005 10:53 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 38 of 223 (195077)
03-28-2005 11:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
03-28-2005 10:53 PM
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Re: How much agreement?
Well, it's the one found in the Bible and definitely the one Jesus spoke of.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 37 by Faith, posted 03-28-2005 10:53 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 39 by Faith, posted 03-29-2005 1:00 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 40 of 223 (195123)
03-29-2005 3:53 AM
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Reply to: Message 39 by Faith
03-29-2005 1:00 AM
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Re: How much agreement?
Well, I've dealt with all of the passages you mention at one time or another here so pick the one you'd like to start with and we'll discuss it. And by the way, I seriously doubt that most Christians will get to heaven but most Atheists will. 
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 39 by Faith, posted 03-29-2005 1:00 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 61 of 223 (195219)
03-29-2005 2:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 58 by nator
03-29-2005 1:54 PM
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Re: How much agreement?
"Call me Ishmael."
YOU don't know about me without you have read a book The above is certainly a narative, not a work of historical fiction. In fact the author went to great lengths to assure the reader that it WAS narrative, not fiction, a morality story or that it had a plot. To make sure folk understood that it was not simply fiction he included as a Frontispiece:
PERSONS attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot. BY ORDER OF THE AUTHOR, Per G.G., Chief of Ordnance.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 58 by nator, posted 03-29-2005 1:54 PM | | nator has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 103 of 223 (195526)
03-30-2005 5:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
03-30-2005 12:23 PM
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Of course. What has such a track record apart from the Bible? First off the Bible does not have a 3000 or even a 2000 year history. It is and has always been a dynamic anthology of anthologies. It's content has been changing regularly since day one and parts have been added, removed, redacted, condensed, rewritten, revised, translated and then through the whole process again. There is not even a single accepted canon today.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 86 by Faith, posted 03-30-2005 12:23 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 104 by Faith, posted 03-30-2005 8:28 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 105 of 223 (195554)
03-30-2005 8:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 104 by Faith
03-30-2005 8:28 PM
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Have you read any evangelical studies of the validity of the Bible, such as F F Bruce's Are the New Testament documents reliable? and the chapter on the Bible documents in Josh McDowell's classic, Evidence that Demands a Verdict? LOL Is there a universal canon?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 104 by Faith, posted 03-30-2005 8:28 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 110 of 223 (195577)
03-30-2005 10:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 107 by Faith
03-30-2005 9:40 PM
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Re: What this thread is about
Why would you put your own judgments above those of the people who were there at the time and reported on what they witnessed? We don't. We depend on evidence and the record that GOD left. And that's NOT the Bible.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 107 by Faith, posted 03-30-2005 9:40 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 112 by Faith, posted 03-30-2005 10:29 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 113 of 223 (195591)
03-30-2005 11:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 112 by Faith
03-30-2005 10:29 PM
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Re: What this thread is about
So you have no response except ranting and assertions. LOL.
No longer is anyone taught how to judge the integrity of a report. We did judge the integrity of the report. Geology showed integrity, the Biblical account does not. The Bible can't even tell one tale. There are two creation stories, two flood stories and in both cases, the tales are mutually exclusive.
I can tell they're honest men and I can tell they are real human beings and nobody's fiction. Yeah, right. That's why they can't even get the story straight. FAITH, there is NOT a flood story in the Bible, there are two flood stories in the Bible. There is not a creation story in the Bible, there are TWO creation myths in the Bible. The evidence in the universe though IS consistent and accurate. You may not believe it. That's fine. But do understand that your beliefs do not constitute reality. They are BAD science and far worse theology.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 112 by Faith, posted 03-30-2005 10:29 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 114 by Faith, posted 03-30-2005 11:34 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 188 of 223 (197062)
04-05-2005 7:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 183 by Faith
04-05-2005 7:04 PM
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I know you're frustrated
by folks actually asking for support. SO if you cannot support your assertions then just explain to Schraf that it is just a matter of personal belief and faith, not something to be supported. If you would only begin some of your assertions with "I believe" instead of trying to show them as fact which needs to be considered then much of what you see as opposition will fade away. But as long as you insist that everyone, including other Christians, must accept the description of things found in the Bible as fact, things which CAN be verified such as the age of the earth, then you can expect to be asked to provide evidence that will stand up to scrutiny. As a Christian I ask that you stop unfounded attacks on others and try to address some of the reasonable requests made relating to your claims.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 183 by Faith, posted 04-05-2005 7:04 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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