RESURRECTION : THE EVIDENCE (+ Apostolic Martyrdom considerations)

OK I retract "know nothing", because having thought about it I realize you are not really responsible for the information contained in the post in question.It is Jesus Seminarians, who have mis-educated the public, who parade behind credentials under the disguise of scholarship, who have created a Jesus that never existed.The J.S. are not ignorant, they selectively promote sources that appear to support their claims while ignoring sources that refute their claims.Chip, thank you for your calm reply.

Cheers WTAdminBrian

Rand :Thanks for your interest.Chris is basically correct.I never argued that agnostics have no God sense, only persons who deny a deistic belief of some kind.Is it possible to regain God sense ?The overall context where scripture reveals God sense, is in the context of the gospel.If a person can understand the gospel (the way of faith) and come into compliance (relating to Christ by faith however minute) then they can regain God sense.

What is the relavance of this?

The Chester Beatty Papyrus dates from the early 3rd Century AD.Tatian's Harmony was written only a few decades earlier - about 170 AD.The contents of cave 7 at Qumran are hard to identify but they include probably fragments of 1 Enoch, Exodus (Septuagint) and Jeremiah.This site deals with the fragments identified as coming from 1 Enoch - including 7Q5.http://www.breadofangels.com/7qenoch/index.htmlHow does any of this justify your:

But I thought this was something to do with the historic evidence for Jesus. How could Qumran scrolls support that since they, apparently, have nothing to do with the new testament?

Hi Ned,A couple of oddballs think there was a fragment of Mark found in Cave 7 at Qumran, it would have to be pre 68 CECarsten Theide champions its authenticity. If you aren't familiar with Theide then try a Google on him, you can probably guess what you'll find.Brian.

Please read post 16.

Parts of the N.T. was found in this cave.I need a little time to retrieve what I want to say about this from my notes.

Post 16 only makes it more confusing. The original post said nothing about 2nd and 3rd century documents so two of your three examples are completely irrelevant.As for cave 7 of Qumran if you believe that it is settled that it contained any NT documents then I am afraid that you are less than fully informed. That is still very much a fringe view.

Here we have blanket dismissal of evidence JUST BECAUSE it directly refutes the fraudulent claims of J.S., which is an eclectic body of "scholars" that all have one thing in common : do not believe in miracles.How can a group of people who do not believe in miracles/supernatural be fair and objective to a religion that bases their existence on the claim of a miracle ? (the resurrection)Paleography/ists have correctly dated the fragments.Why is your definition of "oddball" always people who diametrically believe the opposite of you ?

When you think about it the caves at Qumran would have been packed full of texts about Jesus if he actually was the Messiah. The whole community at Qumran were waiting on the Messiah, this community was contemporary with Jesus so I find it very suprising that there is nothing at all about Jesus at Qumran.Maybe they missed the earthquakes, the dead walking the streets and the eclipse when Jesus died, shame really.I actually see nothing in the opening post except circular reasoning. 1) Jesus livedSo the Bible says, no contemporaries mention him.2) crucified a) by the Romans
b) instigated by certain Jewish leaders The Bible tells us so, this great event was invisible to everyone else.3) considered deadThe Bible tells us so.4) buried in a known accessible tombAnother Bible bedtime story.5) preached; raised, ascended, and an empty tombBible story to tell the kids when they are feeling sad, like every good fairytale Jesus' one has a happy ending.6) Jewish leaders concerned to disproveAccording to the Bible again.7) persecution of disciples for claiming He raisedMore unsupported assetions, and even if true, do not actually mean that Jersus did rise on Easter sunday.8) empty tomb/Jewish leaders position at stake.Again, another Bible story.8 things that must be assumed as fact in Gene's argument. They have to be assumed because there is not a single shred of proof for ANY of them. Anything can be taken as true if you are gullible to have 8 things about that particular things accepted without question.I could argue that Jesus was actually David Copperfield using a time machine IF my audience were silly enough to take 8 things that I provide as being true without question.Brian.

You haven't provided any evidence, all you have provided is circular reasoning. For example, you say 'instigated by certain Jewish leaders', you have no evidence of this except in the book that tells you the story, this is circular reasoning. If you have to rely on miracles for an historical event, you automatically categorise that event as a myth. How can you use miracles to explain and trye to prove an historical event? Such as? I only apply 'oddball' to people who are clearly oddballs. Am I the only one that considers Theide to be an oddball?Brian.

Is this the document allegedly found in the Qumran cave?

quote:

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Let us look at the fragment itself. First we will note that it is very small, it consists of five lines with only one complete word....To summarize, only one complete word ("and"), sixteen scattered Greek alphabets about half of which are nearly illegible.

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The topic is intended to evidence the Resurrection.You make no mention of the event.The 8 facts are easier to prove than the Resurrection.If you do not trust the source of the Bible to contain accurate information then you are implying the apostles/disciples to be liars.The checkmate evidence proves they were not liars.Even christian-hating Jesus Seminarians admit He lived.Why are there two tombs ?Orthodox and Gordon's.Because there was no body !It was lost to history and no one knows for sure which is the real one.[This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 03-07-2004]