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Author Topic:   What you want to know about Christ.
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 22 of 300 (428292)
10-15-2007 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by gen
10-14-2007 2:45 AM


Why is Faith a Good Thing.
Why does your belief system place so much importance on believing things without evidence? Does it sound reasonable that the creator of the universe would really value such "faith" and why?
gen writes:
Please don't argue in this one, because you won't change my beliefs, no matter what you say.
Why in the world would you not want to change your beliefs? I think being able to change your beliefs as more information or a better understanding comes available is good and healthy. Shutting out the possibility of changing ones beliefs is a sure fire sign of a defense mechanism is in ploy. Those who crucified Jesus also refused to change their beliefs.

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 Message 1 by gen, posted 10-14-2007 2:45 AM gen has replied

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 73 of 300 (428726)
10-17-2007 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by gen
10-16-2007 6:39 AM


Why is Faith a Good Thing: Equivocation Fallacy
gen writes:
I am sure you believe things that you have not seen with your own eyes, such as the fact the world is round, the earth is so big, and the sun is so big. (I'm not sure exactly). There are thousands of examples of faith, and I believe that, in many cases, the Bible can be, and is proven.
Gen thanks for the reply. However note the above is a classic equivocation fallacy. That is you are using a word with different meanings but confusing or glossing over the different meanings in order to justify some point.
http://adamkemp.newsvine.com/...faith-faith-and-equivocation
Faith that the world is spherical and faith is Jesus are not the same thing.
The use of such a equivocation is a clue of confused muddled thinking.
Also no one is telling you that your belief in the geometry of the planet earth will decide heavenly eternal bliss or eternal damnation and suffering.


However note: My question was deeper than that.
Why would the creator make it so critically important to have faith and believe in something "what we do not see"? Why would a creator give us eyes and a brain but require that we not use them. It all sounds more like a gullibility contest.
This requirement of belief or "faith" is employing the same psychological motivation that perpetuates chain letters.

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 Message 34 by gen, posted 10-16-2007 6:39 AM gen has replied

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 Message 134 by gen, posted 10-20-2007 9:32 PM iceage has not replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 148 of 300 (429748)
10-21-2007 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Phat
10-21-2007 4:03 PM


Re: Jesus's circumcision
phat writes:
I maintain that the emotional passion concerning this man by others..be it intense love or intense hatred....is itself a valid assertion for His existence or at the very least the power of His legend.
Hmmm... intense emotional passion does not equate to evidence of existence in any way shape or form. Hindus intensely oppose Muslims in certain sections of the world but this opposition does not lend credibility to either world view.
I suspect there are few who have hatred of the person Jesus. Some may have a contempt for superstition - especially when it cross-cuts into the political or legal sphere.
However I like to remind myself to "Hate the superstition but Love the superstitionist".
Second you are aware of this this emotional conflict because you live in a Christian/liberal democracy in transition. If there ever is a Muslim/liberal democracy I suspect you will find an equivalent conflict concerning the person of Mohammad.
This struggle is the result of the times the intersection of ancient antiquated beliefs and a more modern science based world view.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 149 of 300 (429752)
10-21-2007 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Phat
10-21-2007 4:03 PM


And one more thought.
Another component of this intense emotional conflict you mentioned is the religious motif of: "believe in this unobservable unknowable unsubstantiated idea or bad things will happen to you for an eternity!" Well I can't force myself to believe stuff like that. Such spiritual threats are psychologically damaging and unhealthily; perpetuation of such a threat is immoral.
BTW, the psychology behind this religious superstitious idea is the same psychology that is behind the common chain letter and it is powerfully effective on some people.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 190 of 300 (430794)
10-27-2007 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by iano
10-27-2007 11:21 AM


Useless generic defense
iano writes:
If God of the Bible exists is there anything to prevent him from ensuring a person knows it is him and not another? The answer, clearly, is no. No one could build an evidential case stronger than he could. If he exists....
You shouldn't confuse our inability to empirically demonstrate our knowledge to you with his ability to demonstrate himself spiritually to us.
A remarkable defense in that it is so generic and works with any faith, psychosis or delusion.
I don't mean to be condescending, but this is same unassailable defense a child might use to defend the existence of their imaginary friend.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 224 of 300 (431371)
10-30-2007 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Rahvin
10-30-2007 7:12 PM


Re: What in the world are you trying to say?!!!
Rahvin writes:
If man has no free will, that means that God created most people who have ever existed specifically for the purpose of throwing them in Hell for eternal torture.
There is biblical support for view somewhere in Romans 9, of course there is also biblical support for the contrary view.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 243 of 300 (431566)
10-31-2007 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by iano
10-31-2007 10:10 PM


Re: I'll try you
In other words you believe that there is no distinction between psychosis and sanity.
Or maybe sanity is really just the average insanity of the majority.
Hey man, don't Bogart that joint!

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 246 of 300 (431586)
10-31-2007 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by jar
10-31-2007 10:45 PM


How could he know?
Actually I don't know how anyone could answer this question concerning a faith in an invisible deity.
It is an interesting question.
If Ian were to say "I know it is God because whenever I pray before buying a lotto ticket I win big!" And if indeed this is true - then is it God? or a demon just trying to lead him astray? Don't really know.
This is why I beginning the believe that faith in some invisible (anthropomorphic) deity without substance is bad thing at best and perhaps immoral.

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 Message 245 by jar, posted 10-31-2007 10:45 PM jar has replied

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 259 of 300 (431924)
11-02-2007 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by pelican
11-02-2007 6:34 PM


Re: human experience
Heinrik writes:
Every human experience is valid. None should be discounted.
Ignore the extreme cases of insanity, people from other religions have religious experiences and visions. The Iranian president has claimed such experiences and the content is very much in line with their religious ideology. Are these experiences valid? Are they from God or something else. How does one differentiate?

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 297 of 300 (433900)
11-13-2007 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by gen
11-13-2007 6:00 AM


Re: Jesus's circumcision
gen writes:
The thing is, God and Science are not opposites.
A very excellent observation. Science is an attempt to understand God and his handiwork as they really are.
Religion is an attempt to understand God through a human lens. It is really more about worshiping man than anything. Making God in mans image is really just making a monkey out of God!
iceage writes:
However I like to remind myself to "Hate the superstition but Love the superstitionist".
gen writes:
Belief in Jesus isn't superstition
I understand that superstition is a loaded pejorative word with negative connotations. However in the abstract, most religious thought really is superstition in priestly vestments.
Superstition is an belief or ritual based not on reason or empirical evidence, but on lack of understanding or fear of the unknown.
Believing that some deity is going to save your ego/personality beyond the grave is superstition by definition.
gen writes:
Now you are going to say, why does God send people to hell? aren't you. Well, I don't believe hell is eternal suffering, it is eternal death.
That actually was a good guess and saved a few posts back and forth. You believe this, counter to the passages in the Bible, because you are a good person.
gen writes:
They would be like Satan-because ultimately that is what sinning is-and want all the power of God.
I don't want the "power of God" and actually no one I know, wants the power of God. I just can't believe in some deity with no evidence as a means to preserving my life.
gen writes:
Satan tried, and his example is this earth, which is, if you ask me, pretty messed up.
Actually according to the Bible God made the earth and everything in it. Calling it pretty messed up is really blaming God. However, I don't believe that the things are pretty messed up but are improving - look just two to three hundred years ago slavery was common (and justified from the scriptures), most people lived lives of drudgery and labor with little free time to ponder big questions, people where executed for blasphemy, women were second class citizens, etc.
I believe, if you allow me to be philosophical for a moment, that in general, life on this planet has a purpose within a universal context... We just don't have a clue what it is yet. Until we do understand I believe our goal should be get our collective DNA off this gravity hole as the long term prospects are not good. We are all in this together and we win/lose collectively and some are not permitted an early out because of some "faith" or irrational belief.

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