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Author
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Topic: Faith and belief - The Almighty God revealed through his grandness
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2317 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 8 of 224 (497445)
02-04-2009 7:03 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Cedre
02-04-2009 3:19 AM
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As I pointed out to you in the other thread, this evidence for god is only apparent if you already believe it is this god that is responsible. If you think it's allah, you'll say the evidence points to allah, if you tihnk it's odin, the evidence points to odin. How can we determine that it is indeed your god that is responsible for this?
I hunt for the truth
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Cedre, posted 02-04-2009 3:19 AM | | Cedre has not replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2317 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 28 of 224 (497764)
02-06-2009 4:51 AM
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Reply to: Message 24 by Cedre
02-06-2009 2:44 AM
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While it's a very nice post, this still doesn't adress the issue I raised in the very beginning of this thread. How do we determine that it is indeed YOUR god that is responsible for all this, instead of say, odin? Or the flying spaghetti monster for that matter?
I hunt for the truth
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 24 by Cedre, posted 02-06-2009 2:44 AM | | Cedre has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 35 by Cedre, posted 02-06-2009 5:40 AM | | Huntard has not replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2317 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 36 of 224 (497775)
02-06-2009 5:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 33 by Peg
02-06-2009 5:28 AM
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Peg writes: its what makes every intelligent person conclude that there is an intelligent creator behind it
Are you saying anyone who doesn't believe in an intelligent creator can not be intelligent?
I hunt for the truth
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 33 by Peg, posted 02-06-2009 5:28 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 40 by Peg, posted 02-06-2009 5:51 AM | | Huntard has not replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2317 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 66 of 224 (497820)
02-06-2009 7:58 AM
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Reply to: Message 65 by Cedre
02-06-2009 7:53 AM
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Would you mind telling me why a theory that is about the genetic change in populations over time would explain morality? Oh, and you still haven't provided any way to determine if YOUR god is indeed resposible for all of this.
I hunt for the truth
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by Cedre, posted 02-06-2009 7:53 AM | | Cedre has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 69 by Cedre, posted 02-06-2009 8:15 AM | | Huntard has not replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2317 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 88 of 224 (497857)
02-06-2009 9:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 85 by Cedre
02-06-2009 9:34 AM
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Re: Modulous
Cedre writes: God has no choice but to be moral, that way we can depend on him to be always a good God.
Like when he killed Lot's innocent wife?
I hunt for the truth
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 85 by Cedre, posted 02-06-2009 9:34 AM | | Cedre has not replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2317 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 104 of 224 (497970)
02-06-2009 8:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 101 by Peg
02-06-2009 8:01 PM
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Peg writes: your right life arising from non living matter has NEVER been observed. That is the reality.
So, you're saying life has always existed? Bear in mind that even the bible doesn't claim that.
Yet you still reason that it must have happened at some point because there was a time on earth when there was no life, then suddenly there was. That reasoning is silly and goes against scientific knowledge about how life is formed. Its formed from pre existing life.
No it doesn't. It MUST have come from non-life at some point.
My own diety has been observed
No. He hasn't.
that what the bible is, a book of his communication with mankind. It matters not to me that this communication took place thousands of years ago, it only matters that i have something in my hand that tells me about it... You have nothign in your hand that tells you that life arises from non living matter, yet you believe it.
I have logic. Even your bible agrees that life hasn't always existed. So, it must have come from non-life at some point.
And yet, if it were not for these natural laws, you and I would not exist. So not only are they necessary for life, but they are purposeful in sustaining life.
How do you know that?
About these laws Einstein wrote: “The scientist’s religious feelings take the form of rapturous amazement at the harmony of Natural law, which reveals an Intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection.”
Yeah....Haven't you learned that an argument from autority is a logical falacy yet?
Im sure he does because “God is a Spirit,” and therefore he dwells in a spirit realm. Spirit carries the meaning of 'wind', breath, blow, force. Its not tangible its immaterial. The spirit realm is not governed by the same laws that govern the material world because there is nothing material in the spiritual realm, therefore, God is not governed by the natural laws of the universe... rather, he created these natural laws to house the material world whereas he lives outside of it in a realm that we can never venture into.
I'll leave this one open for Rahvin. Yes, I'm a nice guy  .
I hunt for the truth
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 101 by Peg, posted 02-06-2009 8:01 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 107 by Peg, posted 02-06-2009 8:57 PM | | Huntard has replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2317 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 116 of 224 (497999)
02-07-2009 3:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 107 by Peg
02-06-2009 8:57 PM
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Peg writes: im sorry Huntard, but your reasoning is skewiff scientific knowledge confirms that life does not arise from non living material
No it doesn't. In fact, it tells us that it MUST have come from non living matter at some point in time.
therefore, it got here by another way
If it got here, it got here from non living matter, the ONLY other option is that it always existed. As pointed out, even the bible says this isn't the case.
the only logical explanation for life is that it was created by a life maker...one with the power to create something as unique and complex as life.
So you say. While I disagree with you on this point, you just contradicted the point you made about life only coming from other life. If it was created, and therefore came out of "thin air" (or whatever other option you want to choose) it STILL came from NON-LIVING matter.
The bible says that 'with God is the source of life' It acknowledges a lifemaker... it says that he created life on earth. So yes, there was a time when there was no life on earth, then God created it.
Yeah, and a lot of other holy books claim it was their deity of choice. That doesn't mean it's true.
i am not saying that life on this earth is eternal or has always been, im not sure why you keep saying that???
Becasue you say that life can only come from other life. That means it MUST have always existed. Since we know it hasn't (remember, even the bible says it didn't), it MUST have come from non-living matter at some point in time.
perhaps its an argument for arguments sake?
I'm just pointing gout your flawed logic.
I hunt for the truth
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 107 by Peg, posted 02-06-2009 8:57 PM | | Peg has not replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2317 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 119 of 224 (498002)
02-07-2009 3:11 AM
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Reply to: Message 118 by Peg
02-07-2009 3:06 AM
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Peg writes: so scientists have created life in the lab. hmmm, interesting... and when did that happen exactly?
He didn't say that.....
I hunt for the truth
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 118 by Peg, posted 02-07-2009 3:06 AM | | Peg has not replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2317 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 121 of 224 (498004)
02-07-2009 3:36 AM
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Reply to: Message 120 by Peg
02-07-2009 3:31 AM
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Peg writes: If you cannot be shown God, then he does not exist and you close your mind to it....well i do the same with abiogenesis. If you cannot show me abiogenesis in action, then i have no need to believe that it actually happened.
You haven't seen god create life either, have you? Yet you believe that.... That's a bit contradictory if you ask me....
I hunt for the truth
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 120 by Peg, posted 02-07-2009 3:31 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 123 by Peg, posted 02-07-2009 3:40 AM | | Huntard has replied | | | Message 132 by Peg, posted 02-08-2009 4:31 AM | | Huntard has replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2317 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 125 of 224 (498008)
02-07-2009 3:59 AM
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Reply to: Message 123 by Peg
02-07-2009 3:40 AM
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Peg writes: the only contradiction is that those who proclaim Abiogenesis as the origin of life, something that cannot be seen, proven or repeated in a lab, actually believe it
Yet you believe god created it, something that has never been seen, cannot be proven, or repeated in a lab. Oh, and abiogenesis CAN be proven, we haven't done so just yet. Which is why I take the position of "I don't know where the first life came from".
yet refuse to believe that an intelligent creator, one who has communicated and shown himself to mankind, could have been the source of life on earth.
This intelligent creator has NEVER been seen. He has also NEVER been observed to create life.
I hunt for the truth
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 123 by Peg, posted 02-07-2009 3:40 AM | | Peg has not replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2317 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 133 of 224 (498099)
02-08-2009 4:35 AM
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Reply to: Message 132 by Peg
02-08-2009 4:31 AM
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Peg writes: cause and effect baby life exists therefore something must have created it Cause and effect baby, life exists, therefore it must have generated through chemistry. See what I did there? Edited by Huntard, : quotebox error
I hunt for the truth
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 132 by Peg, posted 02-08-2009 4:31 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 138 by Peg, posted 02-08-2009 5:11 AM | | Huntard has replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2317 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 137 of 224 (498105)
02-08-2009 5:07 AM
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Reply to: Message 135 by Peg
02-08-2009 4:45 AM
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Peg writes: if God didnt make life on earth, then it must have always been here.
You haven't been paying attention have you, there are UNLIMITED other entities that could've "made" life on Earth. Not to mention the fact that it could've come about through chemistry.
However we know that it hasnt always been here as Rahvin pointed out. That can only lead us to Abiogenesis... which cannot be proved, cannot be replicated, cannot be observed and therefore there is no evidence for it. i love circular arguments.
You certainly do, since god has also never been onserved to create life, it can't be proven, nor observed in a lab, so there is no evidence for it, yet you believe it. Don't you see you're doing EXACTLY what you're claiming we're doing?
I hunt for the truth
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 135 by Peg, posted 02-08-2009 4:45 AM | | Peg has not replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2317 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 139 of 224 (498107)
02-08-2009 5:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 138 by Peg
02-08-2009 5:11 AM
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Peg writes: i do see what you did there huntard can you tell me if any scientist has been successful in creating life thru chemical reactions in the lab?
I can't, nor do I claim that this is how life came about. I simply don't know. I do BELIEVE that is how it will be shown to have happened, but I entirely accept I could be very wrong there. Now, can you show me how god created life?
I hunt for the truth
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 138 by Peg, posted 02-08-2009 5:11 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 141 by Peg, posted 02-08-2009 5:19 AM | | Huntard has replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2317 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 142 of 224 (498110)
02-08-2009 5:26 AM
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Reply to: Message 141 by Peg
02-08-2009 5:19 AM
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Peg writes: according to the bible, God made mad from the ground it doesn not explain the process God used to do this and so I cannot tell you that Lets face it, we are both in the same boat... Its all about faith. you have faith in something you cannot see just as i have faith in something i cannot see
Actually, chemistry DOES exist, and I'm fully convinced through the things I've seen about it that this could be an explanation. When it comes to god, I have seen absolutely nothing that points to him even existing, let alone being capable of creating life. So no, it's not exactly the same. Let's forget about all that however, the only truly right position anyone can take right now is: "I don't know" with perhaps a note pointing to the thing that has your preference. You however say that it is true that god created it, yet when we say it is chemistry, you say we can't take that position because it has no evidence, entirely forgetting that you have no evidence either. Not even mentioning the fact that the study of abiogenesis has shown some results in at least producing the building blocks of life. As opposed to your god, who hasn't shown ANY evidence of his creative powers anywhere.
I hunt for the truth
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 141 by Peg, posted 02-08-2009 5:19 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 143 by Peg, posted 02-08-2009 5:39 AM | | Huntard has replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2317 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 144 of 224 (498113)
02-08-2009 5:43 AM
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Reply to: Message 143 by Peg
02-08-2009 5:39 AM
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Peg writes: well thats not quite true either we have a nation of people who claim to have had direct dealings with God. Now if you believe their word or not is not the issue...the fact is that a nation of people (jews) have a historical record of Gods intervention on their behalf a record of Gods powerful Acts on their behalf a record of Gods laws and prophecies a record of Gods own Son coming to earth and dieing on a stake the followers of Jesus have a visible history that is clearly seen in archeology, roman history, and right down to our day a continual line of evidence which leads people like myself to beleive that this God of the bible is real. so i have faith based on what i believe to be evidence. I can see the walls of Jerusalem, the ancient christain church's and manuscripts, the prophecies fulfillments...all these things are tangible evidence. i have evidence for which my faith is based on.
So has Islam, or Hinduism for that matter. Do you believe their claims as well? For that matter, do you believe spiderman exists because New York is exists?
I hunt for the truth
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 143 by Peg, posted 02-08-2009 5:39 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 145 by Peg, posted 02-08-2009 5:53 AM | | Huntard has replied |
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