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Author Topic:   Faith and belief - The Almighty God revealed through his grandness
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5381
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 8.5


Message 151 of 224 (498128)
02-08-2009 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Peg
02-08-2009 5:39 AM


we have a nation of people who claim to have had direct dealings with God.

We have several hundred nations who claim that sort of thing, but all with different gods, Peg. Coyote really did play tricks on the ancestors of the Cheyenne, y'know. Zeus really did kidnap maidens all over Hellas. That the Hebrews were a bit obsessive/compulsive about copying their scrolls doesn't add any weight to the accuracy of the original stories.


"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD
This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Peg, posted 02-08-2009 5:39 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 213 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 152 of 224 (498131)
02-08-2009 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by DevilsAdvocate
02-08-2009 9:18 AM


Re: Modulous
I didn't cite Matthew 12:1-21 because I don't think this was a clear cut case in which Jesus disobeyed the Sabbath. But I will entertain your comments.

Agreed - I read that section as Jesus clarifying what does and does not constitute 'working on the Sabbath' which is at odds with the experts of Jewish Law: The Pharisees rather than necessarily being against the law itself.

In my opinion, all this "God can change his mind or amend or end the OT law" crap is an attempt by early Church fathers i.e. Jerome, Augustine and the like to try to rectify the obvious moral inconsistencies between the OT and the NT resulting from merging two worldviews together, the Semitic worldview of the OT and the Hellenized worldview of the NT. You explaining that God has the right to do this does not make it less of an inconsistent.

One of the things that always strikes me as odd about all this is that when God spoke to Moses in Leviticus he had the opportunity to say whatever he wanted. He could have said: Love all others as you love yourself. Instead he used the rather specific:

quote:
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the LORD.

(Lev 19)

So you should be nice to your own, but not to others? Hurray for Biblical support of Sectarian conflict.

"What do we do to the others O Lord?"
"Smite them, with a big stick. And do unspeakable things to their women folk."
"That's jolly convenient because that's what we have been doing and we have rather been enjoying it too!"
"I am thy Lord your God."
"Amen!"

It took a long time before God clarified that by "children of thy people" and "neighbour" what he really meant to say was "everybody, enemies and loved ones alike". And when God said that two witnesses were enough to condemn an adulterer to death (Deu 17), he neglected to mention that those witnesses must be without sin and that since nobody is without sin nobody would do (John 8).

It isn't that God forgot of course, it is that us sinful humans chose to misunderstand him. God is kind of like a bad debater - it isn't that his first post showed what a terrible, pedantic maniac he was, it was just that you need to interpret the first post in light of subsequent posts and you must spend hours of your own time trying to make them coherent and this is not because the poster is a bad communicator or that their position is poor/incoherent but instead it is because the reader doesn't 'get it'.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-08-2009 9:18 AM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 382 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 153 of 224 (498143)
02-08-2009 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by DevilsAdvocate
02-08-2009 9:18 AM


Re: Modulous
Devil writes
Nice to hear from you again as well Bertot, my old arch-nemesis or should I say Barfolomew.

Thanks for your recent post there President Screw, Ill get to it as soon as I can this evening, it may be very late, work and all that you understand.

D Bertot


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-08-2009 9:18 AM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 154 of 224 (498145)
02-08-2009 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by DevilsAdvocate
02-07-2009 8:07 AM


Re: Law
Hi DA,

I had to ask a question about this.

DevilsAdvocate writes:

In John 8:3-11 Jesus blatantly ignores these previous COMMANDS BY GOD given to Moses stating that adultery will be punished by stoning and tells the Pharasees and Scribes "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." and they all leave.

Who was the Law given to?

In Message 150 you said:

DevilsAdvocate writes:

Why give the Jews over 700 laws and expect them not to follow it to the T?

So the Law was given to the decendants of Abraham.

That means if the woman in John 8:3-11 was not a decendant of Abraham she was not under the law.

The Scripture refers to her only as woman.

And if she was not under the law the law could not be applied.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-07-2009 8:07 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Straggler, posted 02-08-2009 3:52 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 156 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-08-2009 4:19 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 155 of 224 (498148)
02-08-2009 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by ICANT
02-08-2009 3:37 PM


Re: Law
That means if the woman in John 8:3-11 was not a decendant of Abraham she was not under the law.

The Scripture refers to her only as woman.

And if she was not under the law the law could not be applied.

Are you saying that the commandments only apply to Jews?

Are you saying that if a non-Jew commits adultery that this is not an immoral act according to the bible?

Can you clarify as I am sure that this is not what you are saying despite how it sounds.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by ICANT, posted 02-08-2009 3:37 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-08-2009 4:28 PM Straggler has not yet responded
 Message 159 by ICANT, posted 02-08-2009 4:39 PM Straggler has responded

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1210 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 156 of 224 (498150)
02-08-2009 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by ICANT
02-08-2009 3:37 PM


Re: Law
So the Law was given to the decendants of Abraham.

That means if the woman in John 8:3-11 was not a decendant of Abraham she was not under the law.

The Scripture refers to her only as woman.

And if she was not under the law the law could not be applied.

Now you are just being stupid ICANT. The Pharisees themselves knew that the laws in the Torah only applied to the descendents of Abraham. Even the Samaritians, considered half-breeds by the Jews of Judea, considered themselves under the laws of Moses in the Torah. If this woman was a gentile i.e. a Roman or a Greek or anything other than Jewish than they would not have even talked to her much less attempt to prosecute God's law against her.

Don't play these stupid little rationalizing away games ICANT. You are a preacher, you know this was not the case. You aren't fooling anyone.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by ICANT, posted 02-08-2009 3:37 PM ICANT has not yet responded

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1210 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 157 of 224 (498151)
02-08-2009 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Straggler
02-08-2009 3:52 PM


Re: Law
Just to clarify:

Straggler writes:

Are you saying that the commandments only apply to Jews?

Yes according to the Bible the laws given to Moses in the OT, only applied to the descendents of Abraham not to the gentiles (non-Jews).

Straggler writes:

Are you saying that if a non-Jew commits adultery that this is not an immoral act according to the bible?

All gentiles were considered lost already and thus not subject to the laws of Moses since they already broke the law. BTW, the Jewish leaders of Jesus day had no jurisdiction over non-Jews. None. Only the Roman prefects in Palestine could judge and preside over non-Jews in Palestine and for any serious infractions by Jews the Sanhedrin had to forward these judgments for capitol punishment to the Roman prefect. The Sanhedrin (Jewish council) had no legal jurisdiction for capitol punishment.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Straggler, posted 02-08-2009 3:52 PM Straggler has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Huntard, posted 02-08-2009 4:34 PM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

Huntard
Member (Idle past 404 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 158 of 224 (498152)
02-08-2009 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by DevilsAdvocate
02-08-2009 4:28 PM


Re: Law
I don't get it, if non Jews aren't bound to the laws of the bible, then why are Christians always going on about "sinning against the laws of god"? If the laws don't apply to non Jews, how can you sin against them?


I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-08-2009 4:28 PM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 159 of 224 (498153)
02-08-2009 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Straggler
02-08-2009 3:52 PM


Re: Law
Hi Straggler,

Stragler writes:

Are you saying that the commandments only apply to Jews?

Are you saying that if a non-Jew commits adultery that this is not an immoral act according to the bible?

Can you clarify as I am sure that this is not what you are saying despite how it sounds.

Anything written in the law is a sin (abomination in the eyes of God).

But the law was given to the descendants of Abraham through the lineage of Isaac.

It was not given to the descendants of Ishmael.

Neither was it given to other inhabitants of the earth at that time or to their descendants.

The Law gives us the knowledge of sin, for without the law how would we know what was sin?

Romams 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The Law was given to keep a group of people pure for the Messiah to come into the world through.

And yes they the Law was to be obeyed to the jot and tittle.

But the Law was not given to any other group to practice.

They had a ceremony where a person could become a proselyte in OT days, and still do.

One of the biggest problems with people understanding the Bible is they believe everything written was to them.

Somethings are written to everyone in general.
Somethings are written a particular group of people.
Somethings were written to individuals.

So everything in the Bible does not apply to everybody in the world.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Straggler, posted 02-08-2009 3:52 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Straggler, posted 02-08-2009 5:01 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 160 of 224 (498156)
02-08-2009 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by ICANT
02-08-2009 4:39 PM


Re: Law
Somethings are written to everyone in general.
Somethings are written a particular group of people.
Somethings were written to individuals.

OK. We apparently know that the law is only intended for some people.
How do we know that the definition of these actions as sinful applies to everyone?

Does it explicitly differentiate in the bible?

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by ICANT, posted 02-08-2009 4:39 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-08-2009 5:53 PM Straggler has responded

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1210 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 161 of 224 (498158)
02-08-2009 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Straggler
02-08-2009 5:01 PM


Re: Law
OK. We apparently know that the law is only intended for some people.
How do we know that the definition of these actions as sinful appies to everyone?

Does it explicitly differentiate in the bible?

This is where ICANT and I part ways so to speak. I understand the historical significance of the law to the Jewish people in the OT and in fact my brother-in-law is Jewish so I have a pretty good understanding of the OT law from both the Christian and Jewish mindset.

However, where I disagree with most Christians and Jews is that I do not equate the law as being given from a supernatural being rather I see it as a Semitic religious and societal set of laws that evolved over the history of the Jewish state and later adopted and modified by the Christian religious leaders.

Further, modern Jews still do not hold that there laws directly apply to the rest of mankind. Rather they hold that the Jewish religion is to be an example or role model for the rest of humanity to follow. Jews do no hold gentiles to there standard of the law, only other Jews. In Jewish thinking, a gentile just has to believe in the one true God and be obedient (though they don't have to be obedient to all the Halakah-Jewish laws) in order to recieve divine favor.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Straggler, posted 02-08-2009 5:01 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Straggler, posted 02-08-2009 6:26 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 162 of 224 (498162)
02-08-2009 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by DevilsAdvocate
02-08-2009 5:53 PM


Re: Law
OK. So (and this is a genuine question not necessarily a point of debate) if the law regarding adultery (for example) does not apply to gentiles on what biblical basis can it be concluded that adultery is sinful for gentiles?

Is it explicitly stated as seperate to Jewish law and sinful for all in the bible?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-08-2009 5:53 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-08-2009 9:12 PM Straggler has not yet responded

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2102 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 163 of 224 (498165)
02-08-2009 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by DevilsAdvocate
02-08-2009 9:18 AM


Blood-lust
Why wait 2000 years to correct his first fuck up? Why not instill these principles/philosophies in the first place?

Waal y`see, DA, YHWH, being omniscient, knew from the start that the Jews would fail, but He had this blood-lust thingy that He couldn`t control. A world-wide genocide didn`t sate His hunger,so He rigged the rules to keep up the slaughter. Something that Christians admirably followed in the following centuries.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-08-2009 9:18 AM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2102 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 164 of 224 (498167)
02-08-2009 7:28 PM


PdeA
Just like to point out, fellas, that the 'woman taken in adultery' (Pericope de Adultera) has some pretty dodgy provenance. But, then, what part of the Bible doesn`t have dodgy provenance?
If you`re interested, Wikipedia gives a variety of viewpoints.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pericope_de_adultera


  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1210 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 165 of 224 (498181)
02-08-2009 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Straggler
02-08-2009 6:26 PM


Re: Law
OK. So (and this is a genuine question not necessarily a point of debate) if the law regarding adultery (for example) does not apply to gentiles on what biblical basis can it be concluded that adultery is sinful for gentiles?

Yes. Let me ammend what I said before, the law of adultery does apply to gentiles as well as Jews. It is part of the 7 fundamental laws (the laws of Noah) which applies to both Jews and non-Jews according to Jewish tradition (though not explicitly stated in the OT as being for both Jews and non-Jews). These laws which apply to all mankind are as follows:

1) idolatry
2) blasphemy
3) homicide
4) incest and adultery
5) robbery
6) eating the flesh of a live creature
7) establishing a system of justice

That's it for the non-Jews. The Jews have 613 other commandments/laws of God they have to abide by.

Is it explicitly stated as seperate to Jewish law and sinful for all in the bible?

Yes and no. What do you mean by sinful for all in the Bible? Problem is that the OT Bible is not the all-inclusive moral code for even orthodox Jews. They have a lot of extra-biblical rabbanic literature they use to interpret and expand upon the Jewish Bible. Modern Judaism has a lot more shades of grey than modern Christianity.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Straggler, posted 02-08-2009 6:26 PM Straggler has not yet responded

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