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Author Topic:   Faith and belief - The Almighty God revealed through his grandness
Modulous
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 211 of 224 (498270)
02-09-2009 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Cedre
02-09-2009 6:54 AM


Re: Clarification
I have shown God's terrible splendor, Job 13:11 "and his glorious splendor would make you terrified." I have shown his power, Psa 97:5 "Mountains melt away like wax in the presence of the LORD of all the earth." and his lofty ways, Isa 55:8-9 "The LORD says: "My thoughts and my ways are not like yours. Just as the heavens are higher than the earth, my thoughts and my ways are higher than yours." but more importantly I have shown his love for mankind Joh 3:16 "God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die."

OK, so you have quoted some scripture at me.

One just has to look at the monstrous size of the universe, notice all its mysteries and wonders, and the beauty in its artistry to realize God's grandeur

And you've pointed at the universe. Somehow you have to tie the two together. I look at it, my breath is taken away, but I don't see how it necessarily must mean that God is grand.

When you do this you begin to comprehend just how big a sacrifice God perfomed for mankind when he died at their hands

Is the magnitude of badness of three days of death after torture and humuliation somehow proportional to the volume of the universe? How does that work?

Don't get me wrong - we all feal these numinous feelings from time to time, especially when we look at certain things (some get it from mathematics, others from cosmology, others from biology etc etc). However, different people associate that feeling with different things based largely upon their culture. Those raised as Muslims associate it with the glory of Allah. Those raised as Buddhists associate it with elusive flashes of enlightenment, those who have shed their culturaly religions tend to associate them with an extreme, unusual brain-based event.

Pointing at the universe and saying 'but...look at it! Read this bit of scripture! Look at the universe! Can't you see!?', doesn't really qualify as revealing the grandeur of God. It expresses that you feel the universe has grandeur I suppose.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Cedre, posted 02-09-2009 6:54 AM Cedre has not yet responded

Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3910
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 212 of 224 (498271)
02-09-2009 7:38 AM


ONLY CONCLUDING STATEMENTS NOW
CEDRE HAS DONE A CONCLUDING MESSAGE.

LET'S HAVE ALL THE MESSAGES NOW BE ONE LAST CONCLUDING MESSAGE PER MEMBER.

Adminnemooseus


New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

Report a problem etc. type topics:
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Admin writes:

It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon.

There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot.

Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Source


DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1438 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 213 of 224 (498272)
02-09-2009 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Peg
02-06-2009 6:54 PM


you would need to define intelligence

personally, i dont define it by ones beliefs but by ones self awareness, understanding of ones environment and of being able to acquire and retain knowledge. Learning from experiences, ones ability to solve problems and to respond successfully to constantly changing situations.

we all have this ability therefore as i said, ALL humans are intelligent.

Intelligence is a relative term. Yes, humans are more intillegent than animals though there are some extreme cases i.e. severly mentally handicapped humans who have very little to no cognitive abilities and are on par or worse than higher animal intelligence. Children are less intelligent than adults on average due to the fact that a childs brain is still in development and a child has very little life experience.

Our beliefs are a different matter and they do not impact on our intelligence.

No, it is more like our intelligence affects our beliefs. Many children (though not all) have less intelligence than many adults just for the sheer lack of life experience, they also are more prone to believe in things that most adults have stopped believing in i.e. Santa Claus.

Einstein was intelligent and happened to have some crazy beliefs.

Such as?


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Peg, posted 02-06-2009 6:54 PM Peg has not yet responded

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1438 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 214 of 224 (498274)
02-09-2009 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by Dawn Bertot
02-09-2009 2:24 AM


Re: Modulous
Sorry didn't see Admins message of a last concluding post. I could play run around and around with Bertot but I know this is pretty much futile (on both are parts, nothing against you Bertot).

However, I just want to say this:

Science and religion are not mutually exclusive. My lack of belief in the Christian God is only due to the lack of evidence and the moral inconsistencies in the scripture which support this belief. That's it. If Christians can rationally show me how these moral inconsistencies are not inconsistencies and point to uncontrovertable evidence of God's existence, I would become a believer (again).

However, the arguments I have seen thus far are IMHO lacking (though some arguments are stronger than others).

I hope that Christians and other people do not think that agnostic atheists (no those are not mutually exclusive terms, look it up) are not holding this position just because they don't like Christians or hate the Christian faith. Nothing could be further from the truth. I admire many Christian tenants and doctrine (though not all) and much (though not all) of our present Western culture owes its moral structure to the Judea-Christian worldview.

Where I differ is in its source. Having studied religion, history and culture and having actually visited many of these places i.e. Europe, the Middle East, Eastern Asia and the like has opened my eyes to understand how much of our western culture originated. I do not claim to be an expert and am always on a quest to learn more about the universe and the human journey. My beliefs have changed and will continue to change. All I ask is for evidence to back up claims of a supernatural origin.

Above all, we should be humble enough to acknowledge that we do not know it all or are the single source of understanding and interpreting religious scripture. My advice for any open-minded individual is to continue learning, gather and analyze the evidence and search for the truth.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-09-2009 2:24 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2526 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 215 of 224 (498279)
02-09-2009 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Peg
02-08-2009 11:52 PM


Try this: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/programs/int_hist.html
The Bible's Buried Secrets (Nov. 2008)

An archeological detective story traces the origins of the Hebrew Bible

The program is 100 minutes long and gives many explanations of the reasons behind the skepticism of when & who wrote the biblical passages.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Peg, posted 02-08-2009 11:52 PM Peg has not yet responded

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6879
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 216 of 224 (498291)
02-09-2009 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Peg
02-06-2009 5:12 AM


Re: Prophesies? Not
I have to disagree with your dating of the writings of Isaiah. Literary scholarship shows that authorship was by more than one person and that different sections were written hundreds of years apart.

Here is a list from before this century
http://www.biblicalresources.info/pages/isaiah/mulauthorshp.html

As for Jeremiah we have some historical anachronistic issues with him and his prophecies. Tim Callahan in his book
'Secret Origins of the Bible" states it quite well on page 336.
"The historical error is that the Babylonian Captivity lasted only 49 years (587 to 538) as opposed to 70. Jeremiahs''s prediction of a 70-year desolation (jer.25:11, 12) was probably a way of saying a long time (a sabbath of decades) or a lifetime. It is interpreted as literally 70 years in 2 Chr.36:20,21. The Book of Chronicles is thought to have been written in the time of Ezra and Nehemiah, ca 450. Daniel's acceptance of literal 70 years is yet another indication that the author was not familiar with the time period in which he has placed his hero. More important, however, is the anachronistic use of the Book of Jeremiah, which in Dan.9:2 is already part of the word of God. Yet Daniel was supposed to have lived during the Exile. Hence his lifespan would have overlapped that of Jeremiah. Thus, Jeremiah's word would not have been made part of the canon"

This little snippet shows how difficult it can be to date or even chronologically arrange books of the bible. In order for you to claim these to be prophecies you must provide some proof to the actual dating of these books and prophecies. Just because tradition gives a date does not make it true.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Peg, posted 02-06-2009 5:12 AM Peg has not yet responded

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 217 of 224 (498294)
02-09-2009 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Cedre
02-09-2009 7:16 AM


Re: In Conclusion
But I have shown God's terrible splendor, Job 13:11 "and his glorious splendor would make you terrified." I have shown his power, Psa 97:5 "Mountains melt away like wax in the presence of the LORD of all the earth." and his lofty ways, Isa 55:8-9 "The LORD says: "My thoughts and my ways are not like yours. Just as the heavens are higher than the earth, my thoughts and my ways are higher than yours." but more importantly I have shown his love for mankind Joh 3:16 "God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die." John 15:13 "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

You haven't shown anything. You pointed at the Universe, pointed at the Bible, and claimed that one proved the other when you did nothing to show that.

In this entire thread you've done absolutely nothing more than make arguments from incredulity. That's all your OP was, and it's all you're doing now in your summation. You haven't shown anything beyond your ability to commit logical fallacies.

Quoting the Bible doesn't prove anything. You're reading from a series of old books, nothing mroe. Your arguments are literally identical to taking the Harry Potter series, quoting a few passages, and exclaiming "look at what a magical world we live in! See? Hogwart's is real!

It's utter nonsense. You're making an unfounded logical leap for no other reason than your personal incredulity.

One just has to look at the monstrous size of the universe, notice all its mysteries and wonders, and the beauty in its artistry to realize God's grandeur. When you do this you begin to comprehend just how big a sacrifice God perfomed for mankind when he died at their hands.

Stop right there. You just did it again.

How exactly do you go from "the Unvierse is impressive" to "God made a huge sacrifice?" You haven't connected the two - not even with a Bible quote. You put together two entirely different statements and claimed that one leads to the other with nothing to show the connection.

You haven't shown that God made a sacrifice.
You haven't shown that God even exists.
You haven't shown how the impressiveness of the Universe is connected to those two claims.

Your argument is patehtic.

For a god of such splendor, glory and supremacy, to lower himself to the level of mankind, from his high and lofty throne. John 15:13 "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

Congratulations, you can quote the Bible. Shoudl I start quoting the Koran? Perhaps some Hindu or Buddhist texts? I could go through Egyptian or Greek or Norse beliefs. "How terrible Poseidon is! Behold the fury of the waves! The power of the sea reveals the glory of Poseidon and the might of his wrath!"

That's all you've done. In my statement above, did I prove that Poseidon exists? How did I connect the "fury of the waves" to the existence of a Greek god?

You've done nothing more. Your posting consists of nothing more than hot air.

I would like to thank everyone who participated in this thread, you were all great. A special thanks to Peg for giving interesting stirs to the debates, a special thanks also to Huntard, MrJack, kuresu, cavediver, Paulk and others for making the conversations lively. Thank you all, for giving this thread a record 209 posts excluding this one. I trust that even though this thread did not fully live up to its potential, it was at least captivating and hopefuly changed a few minds. But now I have to conclude this discussion. Thankyou once more and cheers until we meet again in another thread.

"Record 209 posts?" "Record?"

If you stick around, you'll note that we typically don't close threads until they pass the 300-post mark, and even then some threads have been left open past 400.

But this discussion hasn't changed anyone's mind. Let's be honest - nothing of substance was asserted by you in the first place. You did nothing but make an appeal to your personal incredulity, as if your internal, subjective sense of wonder actually had anything to do with the existence or nonexistence of your deity.

Even Peg (who participated far more in the thread than you, the OP) did little more than add appeals to authority to your appeal to incredulity (and appeals to the authority of a person making an appeal to incredulity, which was extremely amusing and overloaded many irony meters).

The utter inability displayed by theists in this thread to make reasoned arguments and the reliance on logical fallacies to prove their points demonstrates the total vacuousness of their position.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Cedre, posted 02-09-2009 7:16 AM Cedre has not yet responded

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2330 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 218 of 224 (498355)
02-09-2009 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Peg
02-09-2009 4:24 AM


Re: Deity of Christ
John8:17 'Jesus answered the Pharasees: In your law it is written that the testimony of two men is true; I bear witness to myself and the Father who sent me bears witness to me'

Isn`t that the text the Watchtower Society uses to dodge those 25,000 child abuse claims?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Peg, posted 02-09-2009 4:24 AM Peg has not yet responded

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2330 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 219 of 224 (498356)
02-09-2009 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Cedre
02-09-2009 5:32 AM


Re: Clarification
You`re off your meds, Ced, aren`t you? Y`now, the ones evolutionary science created just for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Cedre, posted 02-09-2009 5:32 AM Cedre has not yet responded

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2526 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 220 of 224 (498358)
02-09-2009 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Cedre
02-09-2009 5:32 AM


Re: Clarification
Pleas Evolution has been drowned by the mounting evidence against it, and you can breathe into its mouth until you run out of breath and it still won't come alive ever. so now give up trying to revive it, just bury it already.

Really? & just what is this evidence?


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Cedre, posted 02-09-2009 5:32 AM Cedre has not yet responded

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2330 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 221 of 224 (498360)
02-09-2009 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Cedre
02-09-2009 5:46 AM


Hoaxes
O don't be that naive this were examples that world experts in the field were too naive enough to fall for, they hailed it as evidence for evolution, especially the Piltdown man. for forty years this was used as evidence for the theory, 40 years. I don't think they were naive but rather they didn't do any proper examinations of these various finds because they had found what they were looking for.

Speaking of long-running hoaxes, how about the Bible? Wasn`t until the last couple of centuries that scholars felt safe enough to investigate, and what did they find? Holes big enough to drive Mack trucks through. Multiple versions, contradictions, omissions, interpolations, conflations. Woohoo, what a hoax that was.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Cedre, posted 02-09-2009 5:46 AM Cedre has not yet responded

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2330 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 222 of 224 (498362)
02-09-2009 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Adminnemooseus
02-09-2009 5:53 AM


Re: Scavenger hunt time
Hey, Moose, I did try somewhere back in post 65. Or was it 142? Somewhere there. Guess we`ll have to take a raincheck on the 'grandeur, love' bit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Adminnemooseus, posted 02-09-2009 5:53 AM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2330 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 223 of 224 (498368)
02-09-2009 10:02 PM


Apologies, Moose, I started back on page 14 and only arrived at the finish.

Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3910
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 224 of 224 (498380)
02-10-2009 12:39 AM


Closing time
Through God's grandness I have the power to shut this sucker down.

Want it reopened? See the appropriate link in the "signature".

Adminnemooseus


New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

Report a problem etc. type topics:
Report Technical Problems Here: No. 1
Report Discussion Problems Here: No. 2
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum

Other useful links:

Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC, Assistance w/ Forum Formatting, Proposed New (Great Debate) Topics, Official Invitations to Online Chat@EvC

Admin writes:

It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon.

There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot.

Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Source


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