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Author Topic:   Which ten commandments do you follow?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 16 of 53 (150969)
10-18-2004 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
10-18-2004 10:25 PM


Because the Ten Commandments were given to Jews, to be followed by Jews.
Well, that's funny, because I was in a number of Christian churches, and they made it pretty clear that everybody was supposed to follow them, not just the Jews.
My Catholic school hung them up in the classroom; they never, ever said we didn't have to follow them because we weren't Jewish.

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 Message 15 by jar, posted 10-18-2004 10:25 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 53 (150972)
10-18-2004 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by crashfrog
10-18-2004 10:28 PM


They were given to the Jews. They are reasonable guidelines for any and all.
But they still do not conflict with the 1st Amendment since it is simply a proscription on Congress.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by crashfrog, posted 10-18-2004 10:28 PM crashfrog has replied

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 18 of 53 (150977)
10-18-2004 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
10-18-2004 10:37 PM


They were given to the Jews. They are reasonable guidelines for any and all.
Jar, they're not the "Ten Guidelines." They're the Ten Commandments. Each Church was pretty clear; they apply to everybody.
But they still do not conflict with the 1st Amendment since it is simply a proscription on Congress.
I don't understand how you don't see the contradiction inherent in the statements "nobody can worship anybody but me" and "people must be able to worship whoever they please."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 10-18-2004 10:37 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 53 (150980)
10-18-2004 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by crashfrog
10-18-2004 11:14 PM


GOD said, speaking to the Jews, "I am the LORD Thy GOD.". Sounds pretty clear. It is the GOD of the Jews, of Israel.
The Ten Commandments were commandments given to the Hebrews. Not to the Egyptians, not to the Asyrians.
The Ten Commandments were given to the Jews. They are good guidelines for anyone.
Let's look at the 1st Amendment.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Pretty clear. It is a proscription on the behavior of Congress. It says nothing about individuals or their beliefs.
Please point out where there is any conflict.
edited to add:
I don't understand how you don't see the contradiction inherent in the statements "nobody can worship anybody but me" and "people must be able to worship whoever they please."
I really have to add this. The 1st Commandment does NOT say "nobody can worship anybody but me". It does not say that in ANY of the versions of the Bible I've come across. It is, as I said, a commandment to the Jews that they should not worship other gods. In fact, it does not even say that there are not other gods or that those other gods are not at least equal to and as poweful as the GOD of the Hebrews, of Abraham and Isaac.
This message has been edited by jar, 10-19-2004 12:03 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 20 of 53 (150986)
10-19-2004 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
10-18-2004 11:27 PM


jar
The Ten Commandments were given to the Jews. They are good guidelines for anyone
Here is where the conflict of issues concerning the OP I made are falling into obscurity.I made this request
Of the two different sets of commandments in the bible which one is that which must not be broken and which one do believers in the inerrancy of the bible follow?
These:
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exd 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
Exd 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exd 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Exd 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exd 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exd 20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
Exd 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exd 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Exd 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exd 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exd 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exd 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exd 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that [is] thy neighbour's.
Or these:
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:
Exd 34:15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and [one] call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;
Exd 34:16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.
Exd 34:17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
Exd 34:18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.
Exd 34:19 All that openeth the matrix [is] mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, [whether] ox or sheep, [that is male].
Exd 34:20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem [him] not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.
Exd 34:21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.
Exd 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
Exd 34:23 Thrice in the year shall all your men children appear before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel.
Exd 34:24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.
Exd 34:25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
Exd 34:26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
Notice that in the second set there is no mention of these four from the first set.
Exd 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exd 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exd 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exd 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Even if you are not a literalist or even if you consider it simply a moral guide there is still the question of why the discepancy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 10-18-2004 11:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 10-19-2004 12:31 AM sidelined has replied
 Message 24 by asciikerr, posted 10-19-2004 1:09 AM sidelined has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 21 of 53 (150988)
10-19-2004 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by sidelined
10-19-2004 12:16 AM


Actually, there are at least three sets of commandments in the OT. In addition to those you mentioned there is another set in Deuteronomy.
This is one of the interesting things with the Bible as a whole and the OT in particular. It is not a single book but rather an anthology of works, often conflicting, even more often, confusing.
When people speak of the Ten Commandments they are most often speaking of those in Exodus 20.
In this case, unlike so many other such passages, these are not mutually exclusive. The ones in Exodus 34 and Deuteronomy do not conflict in major ways with those in Exodus 20, they expand, cover different areas, but don't contain the direct conflicts seen in the flood tales or creation tales.
Remember, at one or more times, some one was trying to combine various oral histories, various cultures, various churches, various voices into one. This was done several times and in each case, things from several different threads were combined, often simply interspersed with both tales included sequentially.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by sidelined, posted 10-19-2004 12:16 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by sidelined, posted 10-19-2004 8:46 AM jar has replied

  
asciikerr
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 53 (150990)
10-19-2004 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by crashfrog
10-18-2004 10:18 PM


What conflict?
This still goes along with God's Plan, by allowing the person to have Free-Will. Our Govt doesn't force anybody to worship God, no more than He forces Himself upon any of us. We each have our God given right to choose to worship Him or not. Free Exercise...
quote:
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

So we have the 10 Commandments, we also have the 2 Commandments given to us by Jesus, those who are followers & believers will try to keep these as much as possible. That is their right to excercise free-will and live for God. Of course we also have the non-believers which have the right according to the 1st Ammendment & God's Free Will not to follow the 1st Commandment or any of them for that matter.
Of course, there are stipulations for not following God's Commandments, but that is another story. I still don't see a conflict here, unless your trying to create one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 10-18-2004 10:18 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by crashfrog, posted 10-19-2004 12:53 AM asciikerr has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 23 of 53 (150993)
10-19-2004 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by asciikerr
10-19-2004 12:43 AM


I still don't see a conflict here, unless your trying to create one.
The conflict comes when we try to say that both the Constitution and the Commandments are from the same source; i.e. the Bible. Or when the government puts forth the Commandments in an official context, like in monuments, etc.
The Bible can't say both "Nobody should worship anybody but God" and "anybody can worship anyone they like"; the government can't say both "there is no God but God" and "Congress shall not establish a religion."
Of course, there are stipulations for not following God's Commandments
So, then, we're not free to worship as we please. A totalitarian government couldn't prevent you from being Christian; but they could punish you for it. That's what it means to not have freedom of worship.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by asciikerr, posted 10-19-2004 12:43 AM asciikerr has replied

Replies to this message:
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asciikerr
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 53 (150995)
10-19-2004 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by sidelined
10-19-2004 12:16 AM


Sorry for not answering this Sooner...
quote:
Here is where the conflict of issues concerning the OP I made are falling into obscurity. I made this request
Exd 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exd 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exd 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exd 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Even if you are not a literalist or even if you consider it simply a moral guide there is still the question of why the discepancy?
These are actually covered elsewhere in their laws.
Exd 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 21:12 "Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death.
Exd 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Deuteronomy 5:18 "You shall not commit adultery.
Leviticus 18:20 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her.
Exd 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 22:2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed"
Exd 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exodus 23:1 "Do not spread false reports. Do not help a wicked man by being a malicious witness.
There is also Levitical Law that you can read up on in Levitical Law and support from Jesus Himself.
Matthew 19:19
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother, and 'love your neighbor as yourself."

This message is a reply to:
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asciikerr
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 53 (151001)
10-19-2004 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by crashfrog
10-19-2004 12:53 AM


What Does Jesus Say?
At this point I'm feeling a bit dense
, maybe I am totally missing what your trying to say, perhaps your missing what we're trying to say. You are given a "CHOICE" in both situations, you have the Freedom of Religion or Belief. In any case I'll try to answer this in one verse or less.
quote:
I don't understand how you don't see the contradiction inherent in the statements "nobody can worship anybody but me" and "people must be able to worship whoever they please."
The Bible can't say both "Nobody should worship anybody but God" and "anybody can worship anyone they like"; the government can't say both "there is no God but God" and "Congress shall not establish a religion."
I think Jesus said it best:
John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
quote:
So, then, we're not free to worship as we please. A totalitarian government couldn't prevent you from being Christian; but they could punish you for it. That's what it means to not have freedom of worship.
You always have a choice, you may be limited in your choices but it the fact remains...God has given you a choice. You either accept Him or you don't, the 1st Ammendment doesn't try to stifle your choice, because it still boils down to: Do you accept God or Not!? Same thing, regardless of religion...(maybe we're getting lost in this portion?)
The Roman's made things pretty clear in their government, if you did not worship their plethora of gods then you would be killed in the most extruciating way possible. This left the Early Christians and Jews with very little choice, but they still had a choice! Do they deny the One True Living God and die a most horrid death!? Or do they renounce God and offer sacrifices to the plethora of gods? Unlike our Freedom of Religion, The Romans pushed their Paganism with a heavy hand. It all comes back to John 14:15, if you love Christ then follow His commandments. Do you have too? NO...is Congress trying to establish a religion? NO.
Ultimately, you still have the Freedom of choice; One that requires a yes or no, maybe is not an option here! Do you love & accept Jesus as your Lord & Savior. If yes, follow His commandments and live by them. If No, then don't...excercise your Free-Will & freedom of religion (Athiest, Pagan, etc.). Still not making sense!?
This message has been edited by asciikerr, 10-19-2004 02:22 AM

Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless.
-Bertand Russell, Atheist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by crashfrog, posted 10-19-2004 12:53 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by MrHambre, posted 10-19-2004 10:14 AM asciikerr has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 26 of 53 (151030)
10-19-2004 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
10-19-2004 12:31 AM


jar
In this case, unlike so many other such passages, these are not mutually exclusive. The ones in Exodus 34 and Deuteronomy do not conflict in major ways with those in Exodus 20, they expand, cover different areas, but don't contain the direct conflicts seen in the flood tales or creation tales
I would agree with you here except for this paasage.
Exd 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon [these] tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
I would say this makes for a huge conflict.The "words that were in the first tables" means ,to me, that the duplicate should be a faithful copy of the first.
I mean,come on guys these are the commandments upon which a huge amount of fuss is made of in our world even today. And yet the book which carries it as message does not even hold its god accountable to being able to get the facts straight.
If an oral history was being recorded to combine various cultures together then let us ask this question. Which cultures are represented by the two different commandment sets and why are they said to be the same {EXD 34:1} by the god that supposedly unites them?
You say the commandments were written for the Jewish people yet they are told two different sets of commandments.No wonder they are a rebellious lot.

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 Message 21 by jar, posted 10-19-2004 12:31 AM jar has replied

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MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1415 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 27 of 53 (151048)
10-19-2004 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by asciikerr
10-19-2004 3:08 AM


Roman Rule
asciikerr,
quote:
The Roman's made things pretty clear in their government, if you did not worship their plethora of gods then you would be killed in the most extruciating way possible.
Come on. The Romans only cared that societies submit to Roman rule, and they would brutally put down any insurrection. They did not demand that local populations worship Roman gods. Did you realize that Pilate got in hot water with the Jewish authorities over his plan to use Temple funds to pay for a new aqueduct? Or that Jewish leaders also complained about his display of the Roman standard in the occupied territory of Palestine? Even the procurator of Judea had to walk a fine line when it came to local traditions. The Romans certainly resorted to violence when faced with open rebellion in Palestine, but not over religious matters.
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by asciikerr, posted 10-19-2004 3:08 AM asciikerr has replied

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 Message 32 by asciikerr, posted 10-19-2004 1:28 PM MrHambre has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 53 (151052)
10-19-2004 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by sidelined
10-19-2004 8:46 AM


I would say this makes for a huge conflict.The "words that were in the first tables" means ,to me, that the duplicate should be a faithful copy of the first.
It would, if they had been part of the same story. But they aren't.
If an oral history was being recorded to combine various cultures together then let us ask this question.
Remember, it's not one oral history but several. And the redaction did not happen once, but several times.
Which cultures are represented by the two different commandment sets and why are they said to be the same {EXD 34:1} by the god that supposedly unites them?
Great question and one that folk argue over even today, thousands of years later. There are many other differences between the two Exodus tales that might give some clues. Much of Exodus 34 is concerned with offerings to God. This seems to be from a period when there was a far more organized, urban environment with and established priesthood than the short, simple tale told in Exodus 20 which is far more like the tales you'd find among a nomadic population.
You say the commandments were written for the Jewish people yet they are told two different sets of commandments.No wonder they are a rebellious lot.
That's not exactly what I said. I said there were at least three sets of commandments in the Bible. But then there is also the laws in Leviticus for example. Confusing? Yup! Sure was.
There's a passage in the NT where Jesus is asked, "Which Commandment is the greatest?" This was not being simply a wiseass. It was what the Jews had been discussing for hundreds of years.
Remember, if we consider the history of the Jews from the time when there was an OT such as we see today to the time of Jesus, not all that many years had gone by. The Tanack was not really finalized until around 600 BC or so. Until then it was very much a work in progress. There were all of the older oral traditions. Then there were the two Kindoms, North and South, with their own cultures and religions. In addition there were numerous local variations where communities borrowed particular tales and customs from other religions that surrounded them.
As I have said before, the Bible is far more and anthology than a single story.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by sidelined, posted 10-19-2004 8:46 AM sidelined has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 29 of 53 (151053)
10-19-2004 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
10-15-2004 5:04 PM


Re: Just Two...
funny. the old testament says to fear god, not love him... i think we found another contradiction. and good and evil are constricts on man.... not god.

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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 53 (151058)
10-19-2004 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by macaroniandcheese
10-19-2004 10:26 AM


Re: Just Two...
Well, if you want, you can find as many contradictions in the Bible as you'd like.
But the OT also said to love GOD, not just once but time after time.
But to Fear GOD and Love GOD are not mutually exclusive.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-19-2004 10:26 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

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