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Author Topic:   WILLOWTREE asserts that GOD built the Great Pyramid.
custard
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 32 (115525)
06-15-2004 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Cold Foreign Object
06-15-2004 5:36 PM


Re: So What's the Difference?
Why were we taught in school that prior to Columbus the then known world believed the Earth was flat ?
I was going to say 'read the link' when I tried it and realized it was still hosed. It's fixed now so you can check it out. But here are more highlights from Professor Russel's (short) paper:
quote:
No one before the 1830s believed that medieval people thought that the earth was flat.
The idea was established, almost contemporaneously, by a Frenchman and an American, ... Antoine-Jean Letronne (1787-1848), an academic of strong antireligious prejudices who had studied both geography and patristics and who cleverly drew upon both to misrepresent the church fathers and their medieval successors as believing in a flat earth...
The American was no other than our beloved storyteller Washington Irving (1783-1859)... It was he who invented the indelible picture of the young Columbus, a "simple mariner," appearing before a dark crowd of benighted inquisitors and hooded theologians at a council of Salamanca, all of whom believed, according to Irving, that the earth was flat like a plate.
But now, why did the false accounts of Letronne and Irving become melded and then, as early as the 1860s, begin to be served up in schools and in schoolbooks as the solemn truth?
The answer is that the falsehood about the spherical earth became a colorful and unforgettable part of a larger falsehood: the falsehood of the eternal war between science (good) and religion (bad) throughout Western history.
The reason for promoting both the specific lie about the sphericity of the earth and the general lie that religion and science are in natural and eternal conflict in Western society, is to defend Darwinism.
You really should read the whole thing for the context though. It's about two pages total.
This message has been edited by custard, 06-15-2004 06:25 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-15-2004 5:36 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 17 of 32 (115527)
06-15-2004 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
06-15-2004 5:56 PM


quote:
Less than two minutes. There were so many errors and absurdities right at the beginning that it would be foolish to devote any more time.
Go to my topic and prove me wrong. Just saying it doesn't make it so.
My topic is the rightful topic. This topic should be closed. I will wait for Admin explanation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 06-15-2004 5:56 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 06-15-2004 7:53 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 18 of 32 (115531)
06-15-2004 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Cold Foreign Object
06-15-2004 7:29 PM


I imagine this will stay open. Since we have never been able to get you to answer any of the questions there, let's discuss it here.
Why do you think the Pyramid was beyond the capabilities of the Egyptians?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-15-2004 7:29 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 32 (115763)
06-16-2004 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Cold Foreign Object
06-15-2004 4:05 PM


Re: So What's the Difference?
Willow:
In Message 7, you assert: "Your question (so what's the difference between pyramids) reveals honest ignorance."
Gee thanks for the qualifier that my ignorance is honest rather than corrupt. How nice of you to qualify your typically rash, judgmental, opinionated assertation.
You then suggest that I "just scroll down to my topic 'Proof of God' and review the evidence I posted."
Willow, anyone with even the most myopic vision can see that I was responding in Message 3 to the following statement found in Message 1: "It has been asserted (by Willow) in Message 63 (Thread: A modern object described in ancient texts negates Creation Myth in Forum The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy) that the Great Pyramid was built by GOD and that all the other pyramids are but later copies."
(Willow, are able to follow along here ... it's simple ... chronologically it's one, two, three. Please let me know if I'm going too fast for you or cramming too much information into one little box.)
So, you can clearly see that what I asked you in Message 3 was in direct response to your following statement in above said Message 63 (linked by Message 1):
"Commercial television will only parrot the drivel of egyptologists and their nonsense that humans beings thousands of years ago built this genius structure with incline planes, levers, pulleys, and slave labor. Any objective person who LOOKS at the scientific evidence alone will quickly abandon the aforementioned rubbish."
So again Willow, I ask you plainly and simply as I did in Message 3:
"What specifically is the difference between an ability to construct the Great Pyramid and any other pyramid that essentially is the same structure only on a slightly smaller scale. The complexity of engineering, layout, and construction is the same. The materials are the same kind and weight. So what's the difference, Willow?"
What I am asking is plain and simple, Willow ... you seem to imply that God lifted the stones into place rather than accepting the well-studied and amply justified theories that the Great Pyramid and its smaller, but still massive, accompanying pyramids were built using manpower, tow ropes, lubricants like mud and grease, incline planes, levers, pulleys, sand, water, and other tools and skills available to the Egyptians who indeed were they who designed and constructed the pyramids.
Willow, you are quick and caustic with your criticism of others for the paucity of study they have devoted to this subject. So, how many hours of your life have you spent examining the data? As many as Dr. Hawas and the other egyptologist you so chavanistically disregard?
Also in Message 7, you insist that "when you become up to speed please re-ask you questions."
Okay, I'll make you this deal. I will read your thread "Proof of God" which I was not aware of when I asked the initial question at Message 3 (I was not aware until Message 7) because I was not active in the forum between April 10 and May 28 due to open-heart surgery. But since my question in Message 3, as explained above, is directly tied to your assertation in Message 63 of a totally different thread, why don't you answer my question rather than avoiding the issue by calling me ignorant.
Willow, while you're deciding whether to answer me or find yet another condescending way to avoid answering, let me pose a few more questions directly related to the issue of whether God or man built the Great Pyramid:
1) Did God or man lift the stones into place for the massive stone edifices of pre-Colombian cultures in Central and South America? Remember now, the stones in some Inca edifices are more massive, fit more tighly, and were cut and dragged longer distances on steeper inclines and at higher elevations than stones in the Great Pyramid.
2) Why would God construct edifices clearly designed, intended, and used for the deification of pharoahs, idolatry, and other clearly heathen religious purposes?
3) Since ancient cultures did not have the engineering and construction expertise required to build such massive stone edifices without a primary "God's Model," where exactly are the models from which the pre-Colombian Americans copied their masterpieces?
Peace. Ab.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-15-2004 4:05 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-16-2004 4:42 PM Abshalom has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 20 of 32 (115822)
06-16-2004 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Abshalom
06-16-2004 1:26 PM


Re: So What's the Difference?
Hey Ab;
You know this post of yours is just one huge rant.
You go off on me for saying that you are "ignorant".
Ignorance means "you don't know".
I didn't say you were stupid or dumb I said you were "honestly ignorant". I said this in the context of your ignorant statement; to paraphrase "seen one pyramid seen them all"......"there all the same"
These are the thoughts of an ignorant person concerning the Pyramid.
THAT Pyramid is the last remaining Great Wonder of the world. You opened your mouth to reveal massive ignorance. They are not all the same - not even close !
Are all coins the same ?
cars ?
jewelry ? (real/costume)
The Great Pyramid is a genuine "diamond" all the others are costume.
Only an ignorant passer-by would conclude both genuine and costume are the same because "they look alike".
The Great Pyramid is the only pyramid with ascending passages and it is the only pyramid that has substantial passages.
You also ASSUME that just because it is in Egypt - shazaam ! It must of been built by egyptians. You also assume that it is a tomb or crypt. Why is this assumption made ? Because atheist egyptologists said so. Why do they say so ? Because the Pyramid is in Egpyt, therefore egyptians must of built it. This is circular concluding because to even CONSIDER the "other" evidence would demand the dogma of an ancient "neanderthal" man building this Pyramid be abandoned summarily.
Herodotus said 100,000 men built the Pyramid in 20 years. This is impossible. Sir Flinders Petrie estimates the Pyramid consists of 2.3 million blocks with the majority weighing between 16 to 20 tons each.
On the low end some are a mere 2-3 tons and the high end up to 70 tons each. Do the math. How many of these mammoth blocks had to be transported, cut, lifted, and cemented into place each day by the "skilled" labor of slaves in order for Herodotus to be right. All without machines or industrial construction technology and know-how.
When I tread into science arenas in this Forum I always in some way indicate that I am not one of the "knows". I admit my ignorance and proceed accordingly. I only argue things that I think I know. But when one these super knowledgeable evos trumps my point I am through.
Just recently you produced a post about the location of the Red Sea Exodus crossing. When I read it I became instantly excited and responded by acknowledging that I agree with Abshalom. Your explanation explained what I believed but couldn't evidence. I was ignorant in the ability to communicate what I believed to be true. Your explanation of the location of the Red Sea Exodus crossing CONFIRMS/CORROBORATES what the Pyramid says about the location.
Ignorance simply means "doesn't know" - nothing else.
BTW, if anyone cares, I will not participate in this subject IN THIS topic. My topic "Proof of God" is the rightful topic to debate this subject.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Abshalom, posted 06-16-2004 1:26 PM Abshalom has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-16-2004 9:16 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 25 by custard, posted 06-17-2004 12:14 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 26 by Abshalom, posted 06-17-2004 2:14 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 29 by Abshalom, posted 06-17-2004 6:00 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 21 of 32 (115848)
06-16-2004 6:11 PM


So to sum up things at this point
no one has any evidence to offer that the Great Pyramid is other than the final product of a long line of similar structures, that there is anything involved in the pyramid that would have been beyond the capability of the Egyptians of the period, or that it shows any startling technology.
Is there anything else to add or can we simply say that this thread finally settled the great and nagging question about who built the Pyramid.
The answer, which all can refer to in any future thread, is...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
The Egyptians.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 22 of 32 (115879)
06-16-2004 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Cold Foreign Object
06-16-2004 4:42 PM


Re: So What's the Difference?
quote:
Herodotus said 100,000 men built the Pyramid in 20 years. This is impossible. Sir Flinders Petrie estimates the Pyramid consists of 2.3 million blocks with the majority weighing between 16 to 20 tons each.
On the low end some are a mere 2-3 tons and the high end up to 70 tons each. Do the math. How many of these mammoth blocks had to be transported, cut, lifted, and cemented into place each day by the "skilled" labor of slaves in order for Herodotus to be right. All without machines or industrial construction technology and know-how.
first. it's been proven that the pyramid builders were most likely not slaves but skilled workers in the off season from farming.
now. i love math. let's go.
ok. let's pretend that there are only exactly 2.3 million blocks. let's also pretend that they are all 18 tons each. that's a good average, neh? you said most were, so ok.
so that gives us 41.4 million tons of rock.
i'm going to assume that the average buff working dude can move approximately 400 lbs worth of rock up a pyramid in half a day's work (i'm assuming one trip there, the building is alleged to have happened during the flood season, so they boated the rocks right up to the site). that's being rather generous to your side. i'd imagine they could drag more.
so 41.4mil / 2 for half a day = 20.7 mil.
lets take those years out now.
20 years is 7300 days.
so 20.7 mil / 7300 = 2835.61 and some change. so 2836 rounding up.
so it would conceivably take one man 2835 trips in a year just to get the rocks up the pyramid from the boats. you said 100,000 men. wow. that's a lot more than 2836.
let's go the other way.
so say half of 100,000 cut the rocks and moved them to the boats and the other half put the rocks into the pyramid.
i know nothing about cutting rocks so i'm not fiddling with that one.
so 50k men building.
and lets be a little more conservative with our estimations this time. say a single man can move 200 lbs of rock in a half day trip. so 2 trips and 200 lbs so 400 lbs a day. remember we have 7300 days to do this.
so 50k * 400 * 7300 = 146,000,000,000
remember our total weight estimate was 41.4 million tons?
146 billion > 41.4 million
it's entirely possible.
hell. even at each man only moving 200 lbs a day it's possible (divide by 4... 36,500,000,000... 36.5 billion).
people aren't as weak as you think. and twenty years is a very long time. didn't it take 20 years to build rome? and they built indoor plumbing.
math is fun. you should try it next time before you dare someone else to and make a statement that something is impossible.
oh yeah. and the boatmen... there's still PLENTY of leeway for them.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 06-16-2004 08:17 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-16-2004 4:42 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 06-16-2004 9:38 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 23 of 32 (115884)
06-16-2004 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by macaroniandcheese
06-16-2004 9:16 PM


Actually, most of the studies seem to show that
only 4-5000 workers were involved at the construction site, maybe as many more at the quaries. The Herodotus figures are about as reliable as those for the Exodus. Time probably expanded them by at least an order of magnitude just as in the story of the Exodus. Time does have a tendency to do that.
One of the better studies was done in 1999 by Daniel, Mann, Johnson, & Mendenhall and it can be found Here. They covered just about every possible issue, and as in other studies, there was nothing that was beyond the capabilities of the Egyptians. That ties in well with the bakeries and kitchens found adjacent, the grafitti found on interior stones and difference in the construction of the interior and the exterior portions.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-16-2004 9:16 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-16-2004 9:48 PM jar has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 24 of 32 (115887)
06-16-2004 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
06-16-2004 9:38 PM


Re: Actually, most of the studies seem to show that
that is still more than the 2836 i calculated as necessary moving 800 lbs each daily. and 400 lbs daily would only take 5672 so yeah. not too many more. but still. very possible.
but nonetheless. in babylon they made alloys we still can't duplicate. there are a lot of things 'primitive', ancient man could do that we can't. see they had something we haven't... drive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 06-16-2004 9:38 PM jar has not replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 32 (115933)
06-17-2004 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Cold Foreign Object
06-16-2004 4:42 PM


Re: So What's the Difference?
Willow,
You completely sidestepped Abshalom's questions. Please answer them. Otherwise, this thread is pointless.
abshalom writes:
1) Did God or man lift the stones into place for the massive stone edifices of pre-Colombian cultures in Central and South America? Remember now, the stones in some Inca edifices are more massive, fit more tighly, and were cut and dragged longer distances on steeper inclines and at higher elevations than stones in the Great Pyramid.
2) Why would God construct edifices clearly designed, intended, and used for the deification of pharoahs, idolatry, and other clearly heathen religious purposes?
3) Since ancient cultures did not have the engineering and construction expertise required to build such massive stone edifices without a primary "God's Model," where exactly are the models from which the pre-Colombian Americans copied their masterpieces?
This message has been edited by custard, 06-16-2004 11:15 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-16-2004 4:42 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 32 (116086)
06-17-2004 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Cold Foreign Object
06-16-2004 4:42 PM


Re: So What's the Difference?
Willow:
I'm going not going to respond to the first part of your Message 20 simply because (A) I don't need a lesson in semantics; and (B) You continue to use such crap to avoid answering the simplest of questions in this thread and others.
As regards the second part of your message (the part where you graduate me from "honestly ignorant" to "massively ignorant" and then make several misrepresentations of what I supposedly did and did not say ... oh, by the way, thanks for putting words into my ignorant mouth for me):
1) I never said, "if you've seen one pyramid, you've seen them all."
Basically, I said the Great Pyramid and its smaller companions are constructed generally of the same size and nature of materials; and that if you can transport and place the massive blocks of stone in one pyramid, you certainly can use the same procedures to move and place the same sized, same material composition of stone in a larger pyramid. Now that's the third time I've expressed the same supposition and asked you for a reply ... but, I assume you will once again dodge this issue since you seem incapable of visualizing anything but modern man as being capable of pulling a rope, leaning on a lever, or constructing a rubble and earthen ramp.
While you continue to employ your well-known tactics of avoidance, also feel free to dodge the following obvious issues and questions:
a) If God built the Great Pyramid, as you contend, did He do so using levers, pulleys, etc.? I will assume your answer is an emphatic "NO." And that you would say, if you ever get around to actually answering a question, that God does not need such plebian instruments to erect massive stone edifices, and that is exactly your point ... that it would take the power of God to move such weighty materials to such a lofty extent.
Then, Willow, how did man copy God's supernatural construction techniques during the subsequent erection of the "lesser" pyramids. If pulleys, levers, ramps, and other obvious tools and methods were beyond the Egyptians ability to employ, did they rent some anti-gravitational devices from the local Interstellar Rent-All outlet in Giza? Did God direct the Heavenly Hosts to swing down and assist the pig-ignorant Egyptians?
Of course the rediculously ignorant notion that God built the Great Pyramid first, and that all others are simply inferior copies brings up another point:
b) How do you rectify reversing the sequence wherein dozens of lesser pyramids were constructed prior to the Great Pyramid? Considering the archaeological evidence proving the sequence of development of pyramid structures, wouldn't it be more accurate for you to contend that God copied and improved upon man's model? And if so, what was His point ... to prove that He can out-engineer man? Sheesh!
c) Also in Message 20 you say, "you also ASSUME that just because it is in Egypt - shazaam ! It must of been built by egyptians."
Okay, Willow, I do assume that persons of Egyptian residency constructed the pyramids. The designers, supervisors, laborers, etc., may have been of one ethnic derivation or another. I could really care less. But, yes, I assume they all were human beings residing in Egypt at the time of the construction of all the pyramids great and small. Where do you suppose they were registered as residents and where do you suppose they came from? Planet X? Pearly Gates Estates?
d) Willow, you also play the mind reader by saying, "you also assume that it is a tomb or crypt." I never said or alluded to either. Actually I asked you why God would construct an edifice for an idolatrous use such as the deification of a pharoah. Fact is, I think one of the intended functions of the Great Pyramid is as a "resurrection machine" designed in hopes to convey the dead pharoah's seed and spirit back to the constellation including Osirus' Belt and the Dog Star. As such, the pyramid clearly performs an idolatrous function according to the Law. Any thoughts on why God would create such a abominable monument, Willow?
e) Farther along in Message 20, you say, "Herodotus said 100,000 men built the Pyramid in 20 years. This is impossible." Why? Because Herodotus, with his advantage of living at a closer proximity chronologically and geographically (not to mention his vastly superior intellectual and factual knowledge compared to yours) to the construction of the Great Pyramid failed to attribute its construction to God? Pathetically humerous.
f) Then in Message 20, you include a nearly incomprehensible sentence: "This is circular concluding because to even CONSIDER the 'other' evidence would demand the dogma of an ancient 'neanderthal' man building this Pyramid be abandoned summarily."
Willow, are you attempting to say that Neanderthal men, even though they had totally disappeared from the face of the earth nearly one hundred millenia before the construction of ANY pyramid, somehow were resurrected to participate in the construction of the Great Pyramid or any of its companions? Excuse me, but you've lost me here.
In fact, you completely lose me ... my attention, my interests, my ability to cope with your evasion and empty pride. It's absolutely sinful the extent of your false pride ("my topic "Proof of God" is the rightful topic to debate this subject.") and your haughty superiority regarding whom and what you will and will not answer. For example, your refusal to answer or debate Purple regarding the New Covenant simply because he holds a different opinion regarding the validity of Paul's interpretations of Jesus's teachings runs directly against the teachings of your Messiah (unless He is Paul).
Forgettaboutit. Ab.
This message has been edited by Abshalom, 06-17-2004 01:36 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-16-2004 4:42 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by custard, posted 06-17-2004 5:31 PM Abshalom has replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 32 (116146)
06-17-2004 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Abshalom
06-17-2004 2:14 PM


Re: So What's the Difference?
Sheesh you guys are obtuse! Didn't any of you see Stargate?
Du-uh!
This message has been edited by custard, 06-17-2004 08:24 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Abshalom, posted 06-17-2004 2:14 PM Abshalom has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Abshalom, posted 06-17-2004 5:45 PM custard has not replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 32 (116153)
06-17-2004 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by custard
06-17-2004 5:31 PM


Am Not!
I am not either abtuse. I took my Metamucil, dammit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by custard, posted 06-17-2004 5:31 PM custard has not replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 32 (116157)
06-17-2004 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Cold Foreign Object
06-16-2004 4:42 PM


News Flash
Lands of Goshen!!!
Willow may be onto something!
http://pillar-of-enoch.com/Book1/chapter4.html
Now the next question seems to be ... is Willow a "British Israeli" like the others "End Timers" who hold that the Great Pyramid was built by God?
stay tuned
This message has been edited by Abshalom, 06-17-2004 05:00 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-16-2004 4:42 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 06-17-2004 6:54 PM Abshalom has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 32 (116174)
06-17-2004 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Abshalom
06-17-2004 6:00 PM


Re: News Flash
That is too funny.
Did you actually read some of the claims?
This book is illustrated and jamb-packed with facts you will not find anywhere else in one volume!
Translation, I took all the old stuff from my other volumes and dumped it in here.
But wait, there's more. I also took all the silly stuff from every other crakpot and nutcase out there and stuck it in for free!!!!!!!

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Abshalom, posted 06-17-2004 6:00 PM Abshalom has not replied

  
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