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Author Topic:   Why Would a Loving God Create Hell?
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 196 (449758)
01-18-2008 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by ICANT
01-18-2008 6:34 PM


Re: The Hidden God
ICANT
Why would I do that?

You quoted me where I said I Are One.

But it really would not hurt to clean your glasses I also said I agree.

You stated this

ICANT writes:

I take it that you are trying to say you stupid idiot God had more sons than one. Yes I agree I Are One.

in response to this statement by myself

sidelined writes:

Good point. He sends his only son {not including the sons of God from the old testament} which is in reality God himself according to trinity hypothesis. Then he sacrifices his son {actually himself} through a blod sacrifice.

It seems that you agree with the trinity part but I was stating that you had the problem with the part about God having more than one son and that you would probably say that these were not sons of God but of men which is why I gave the verses from the bible to back it up.

The most important part of the entire cross scene was the three hours that God the Father and God the Son was separated when Jesus took my sin upon Himself

SO God bleeds his own self through Jesus to pay for the sins that were transgressed upon himself by that which He created?

Add you have no problem with that scenario or logic? No taking a step back and asking... WTF?

Had the blood not been shed He would not have died then He would not have been buried, then there would be no resurrection.

You have yet to explain How blood somehow has the property of removing "sins" and now you also have to explain the logic of how {1} a resurrection seems to be likely and how,{2} the resurrection needs blood in order to make it possible.

You still cannot see how this sounds no different than a leader of some remote primitive tribe saying to me that he can raise the dead or curse me from afar or bring famine upon my family? It is primitive superstition and the real world does not work that way.

Thus I would not have victory over death, hell and the grave.
Now as far as how that would satisfy God I have to take Gods word for it.

You don't have victory over the grave. You shall enter it just the same as all of all us do. And hell is not real never existed, was a scare tactic proposed by primitive men to cower other primitive men of just a little less brain power. I cannot imagine what possible flight of fancy allows grown people to buy into such drivel nor has any evidence other than claims by ancient texts written by men ever been produced to back up these claims.

Just because it is written by men does not mean it ever happened. Have you anything that is tangible, reasonable on its face, or does not sound like the babbling of primitive medicine men to support your assertions?

Well I am made in God's image. And I am one. There will come a time when my physical part dies that the intelligence and the Spirit will be separated from the body and be in different places.

God the Father is all intelligence and knowledge. He is not limited as to where He can be.
God the Son, Jesus is God in the flesh. Jesus is limited to being in one place, wherever He is at.
God the Holy Spirit has sealed every spirit that has been born again. He is not limited as to where He can be.
So all three can be doing different jobs in different places and all still be in the same place.

These are easy words to claim but as in Shakespeares play Henry VI

Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.

Hotspur: Why so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call them?

Just because the claim is made and you have faith when there is no evidence for that which leaves no trace does not make it so and indeed would put it ,except for the stubbornness of deeply held belief, squarely in the same realm as no reality whatsoever.

[sigh] Imagine my skepticism...

I did not say that was the only function. I said this is where it comes into play. You can use your freewill to either accept or reject that is entirely up to you.

Can freewill be used to make choice concerning other things definitely.

I exercised mine this morning and decided I was not going to get up until 9 AM.

A previously intended action is not the same as freewill in the moment my friend.

Read up on the experiments performed by Benjamin Libet here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet

or check out the BBC lectures from V.S. Ramachandran at this site here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/reith2003/lecturer.shtml

and see if you have a clearer idea of just how uncertain the issue of freewill or even the sense of self is.

That is you exercising your freewill to believe what you want to believe. I got no problem with that. In fact I was a part of the 3rd Army infantry division so Americans could have that privilege.

Well thank you for the effort since I am sure you also were thinking of us Canadians at the same time.

The matter is not based upon the choosing of or acceptance that leads me reject the biblical myths but simply a skepticism that leads me to the conclusion that there is no good evidence in favour of the assertions it makes.

Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.


"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere."

Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by ICANT, posted 01-18-2008 6:34 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by ICANT, posted 01-18-2008 10:37 PM sidelined has responded

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2381
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 152 of 196 (449766)
01-18-2008 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by purpledawn
01-18-2008 9:54 PM


Re: Who Created Hell?
Hi Purpledawn. I agree with you completely. I should make clear that since I am debating ICANT, it is his concept of damnation that I have been concentrating on. I'm interested in pointing out some of the innate flaws in his model of hell and original sin. I'm also interested to hear how folks who believe in both hell and a loving god manage to square the circle.

Mankind created Hell just like all the other boogey men created to scare people into line.

No argument here. Hell is a nasty concept,one that has caused a great deal of anguish and mental illness over the centuries. That it is based on a mistranslation just makes it worse. Whatever your angle, it needs to be taken on.


Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by purpledawn, posted 01-18-2008 9:54 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 153 of 196 (449770)
01-18-2008 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by sidelined
01-18-2008 10:01 PM


Re: The Hidden God
Hi sidelined,

sidelined writes:

The matter is not based upon the choosing of or acceptance that leads me reject the biblical myths but simply a skepticism that leads me to the conclusion that there is no good evidence in favour of the assertions it makes.

Like I said I got no problem with that.

sidelined writes:

You have yet to explain How blood somehow has the property of removing "sins" and now you also have to explain the logic of how {1} a resurrection seems to be likely and how,{2} the resurrection needs blood in order to make it possible.

This is God's experiment.
He makes the rules.
He performs the tests.
Makes no difference how much we disagree.

So when you meet Him take it up with Him.

Until then,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by sidelined, posted 01-18-2008 10:01 PM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by sidelined, posted 01-18-2008 11:22 PM ICANT has responded

  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 196 (449782)
01-18-2008 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by ICANT
01-18-2008 10:37 PM


Re: The Hidden God
ICANT

This is God's experiment.
He makes the rules.
He performs the tests.
Makes no difference how much we disagree.

According to whom?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by ICANT, posted 01-18-2008 10:37 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 12:43 AM sidelined has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 155 of 196 (449790)
01-19-2008 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by sidelined
01-18-2008 11:22 PM


Re: The Hidden God
Hi sidelined,

sidelined writes:

According to whom?

Isai 45:6 (KJV) That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Have fun,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by sidelined, posted 01-18-2008 11:22 PM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by sidelined, posted 01-19-2008 1:13 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 160 by purpledawn, posted 01-19-2008 7:04 AM ICANT has responded

  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 156 of 196 (449796)
01-19-2008 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by ICANT
01-19-2008 12:43 AM


Re: The Hidden God
ICANT

Isai 45:6 (KJV) That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

You cannot use the Bible {written by men such as Isaiah} as evidence of God because that is what they are trying to convince you of in their writings in the first place. In other words what makes us sure or even suspicious that Isaiah has authority to speak of God when the book of Isaiah is written by him.

After all let us not forget that Isaiah also wrote this obviously flawed and impossible scenario in verse 38:8

Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

If he can be so wrong in this statement why would we trust him on other matters?

Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.

Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 12:43 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 9:08 AM sidelined has responded

  
Force
Inactive Member


Message 157 of 196 (449799)
01-19-2008 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Granny Magda
01-18-2008 8:22 AM


Re: on getting to heaven
bump

Edited by tthzr3, : No reason given.


Thank you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Granny Magda, posted 01-18-2008 8:22 AM Granny Magda has not yet responded

  
Force
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 196 (449800)
01-19-2008 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Granny Magda
01-18-2008 8:22 AM


Re: on getting to heaven
GM,

I am not saying that you do want to become a God because there is no such thing. LOL.


Thank you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Granny Magda, posted 01-18-2008 8:22 AM Granny Magda has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Tal, posted 01-19-2008 5:08 AM Force has not yet responded
 Message 170 by Force, posted 01-19-2008 2:41 PM Force has not yet responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 4017 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 159 of 196 (449810)
01-19-2008 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Force
01-19-2008 2:34 AM


Re: on getting to heaven
I am not saying that you do want to become a God because there is no such thing. LOL.

Your faith is strong.


We never seem to acknowledge that we have been wrong in the past, and so might be wrong in the future. Instead, each generation writes off earlier errors as the result of bad thinking by less able minds-and then confidently embarks on fresh errors of its own. --Michael Crichton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Force, posted 01-19-2008 2:34 AM Force has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-19-2008 9:45 AM Tal has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1797 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 160 of 196 (449813)
01-19-2008 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by ICANT
01-19-2008 12:43 AM


God and Evil
So given what you quoted from Isaiah 45, why does Christianity perpetuate the myth that Hell is eternal punishment for not believing?

The Bible does support that God is considered just, but the idea that people go to Hell for lack of belief doesn't come across as just since God also creates evil and disaster.

Tough love is understandable since humans must do the same from time to time, but the idea that one goes to Hell for lack of belief is not just and I don't see it supported in the Bible.

Hell is associated with our actual actions and it's not eternal.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 12:43 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 10:11 AM purpledawn has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 161 of 196 (449821)
01-19-2008 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by sidelined
01-19-2008 1:13 AM


Re: The Hidden God
Hi sidelined,

quote:
Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

sidelined writes:

If he can be so wrong in this statement why would we trust him on other matters?


What is wrong with that statement?

Have fun,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by sidelined, posted 01-19-2008 1:13 AM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by sidelined, posted 01-19-2008 10:51 AM ICANT has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13371
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 162 of 196 (449824)
01-19-2008 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Tal
01-19-2008 5:08 AM


Why Is Hell The Only Other Option?
We were talking in chat, the other day...and the issue came up:

If a human, (who is not as loving and just as God) sees that a horse has become crippled and is in pain, we will "put the animal down" or shoot them dead as an act of mercy. Why, then, would not God (who is infinitely more merciful than a human) allow an unbeliever the option of ceasing to exist rather than eternal Hell and Torment? It certainly makes no sense to me why eternal torment is the only other option besides surrender and trust in Christ.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Tal, posted 01-19-2008 5:08 AM Tal has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 10:16 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 163 of 196 (449827)
01-19-2008 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by purpledawn
01-19-2008 7:04 AM


Re: God and Evil
Hi PD,

purpledawn writes:

So given what you quoted from Isaiah 45, why does Christianity perpetuate the myth that Hell is eternal punishment for not believing?

I have no idea purpledawn.

In several messages I said man goes into eternal punishment because of the first man's disobedience.

Message 102 my first message in this topic to Phat.
Message 116
Message 129
Message 133

purpledawn writes:

Hell is associated with our actual actions and it's not eternal.

As shown in messages above you are sentenced to the lake of fire because of the first man's disobedience. He was kicked out of God's estate and you have no claim to God's estate.

Why is it not eternal?

God is eternal and you are made in His image. What makes you think you can burn up. That flesh body you have could be but the mind and the spirit could not be and the new body you get at the resurrection can't be either.

Gene 1:27 (KJS) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Isai 40:28 (KJV) Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

God is eternal.
You are eternal.
The lake of fire is eternal.

Reve 20:10 (KJV) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever

purpledawn it really sounds like it is eternal to me.

But you believe whatever makes you comfortable.

It really doesn't make any difference what God says does it?

Have fun,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by purpledawn, posted 01-19-2008 7:04 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by purpledawn, posted 01-19-2008 12:01 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 164 of 196 (449828)
01-19-2008 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Thugpreacha
01-19-2008 9:45 AM


Re: Why Is Hell The Only Other Option?
Hi Phat,

Phat writes:

allow an unbeliever the option of ceasing to exist rather than eternal Hell and Torment?

Phat can God cease to exist?

Have fun,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-19-2008 9:45 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-19-2008 2:45 PM ICANT has responded

  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 165 of 196 (449830)
01-19-2008 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by ICANT
01-19-2008 9:08 AM


Re: The Hidden God
ICANT

ICANT writes:

What is wrong with that statement?

Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

What must occur physically in order for the shadow on the sundial to move backward ten degrees?

Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 9:08 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 11:36 AM sidelined has responded

  
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