Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8951 total)
706 online now:
Newest Member: Mikee
Post Volume: Total: 866,865 Year: 21,901/19,786 Month: 464/1,834 Week: 464/315 Day: 60/82 Hour: 1/9


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why Would a Loving God Create Hell?
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 166 of 196 (449839)
01-19-2008 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by sidelined
01-19-2008 10:51 AM


Re: The Hidden God
Hi sidelined,

sidelined writes:

What must occur physically in order for the shadow on the sundial to move backward ten degrees?

You the scientific person you tell me why.

I am the Bible thumper. I say because God said so and whatever He had to do to accomplish it was very small compared to creating the Universe.

Have fun,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by sidelined, posted 01-19-2008 10:51 AM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by sidelined, posted 01-19-2008 2:07 PM ICANT has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1794 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 167 of 196 (449842)
01-19-2008 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by ICANT
01-19-2008 10:11 AM


Re: God and Evil
quote:
In several messages I said man goes into eternal punishment because of the first man's disobedience.
But the Bible doesn't support that contention either. The most the story says is that death is a consequence of A&E's actions.

quote:
As shown in messages above you are sentenced to the lake of fire because of the first man's disobedience.
Revelation is a symbolic writing. The lake of fire isn't Hell.

Rev 20:14
And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Otherwise God would be throwing Hell into Hell. That's why people need to be clear what they call Hell. References in the Bible are not all equal.

quote:
God is eternal and you are made in His image. What makes you think you can burn up. That flesh body you have could be but the mind and the spirit could not be and the new body you get at the resurrection can't be either.
If one was to receive eternal torment as taught, then the person would still be "living".
IOW being tormented throughout his eternal life, but this verse states that only the righteous receive eternal life.

Matt 25:46—"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Therefore the punishment is death by destruction in the Lake of Fire (not Hell), which is eternal in the sense that it is a permanent judgment. No resurrection for this person. Again, the lake of fire cannot be Hell if Hades is thrown into it.

Eternal life is for the righteous and all others just cease to exist.

This idea would be more consistent with a loving and just God judging our actions.

I don't see that the Bible supports the idea that everyone gets eternal life. One must have eternal life for eternal torment.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 10:11 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 1:37 PM purpledawn has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 168 of 196 (449858)
01-19-2008 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by purpledawn
01-19-2008 12:01 PM


Re: God and Evil
Hi PD,

But the Bible doesn't support that contention either. The most the story says is that death is a consequence of A&E's actions.

Death=separation

Were the first man and the first woman separated from God the day they ate the fruit?

Revelation is a symbolic writing. The lake of fire isn't Hell.

Reve 22:18 (KJ) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Yep really sounds like it is symbolic to me.

With some pretty dire consequences for taking away from what is written in this book.

Like..plagues that are written in this book: added to him.
And..God shall take away his part out of the book of life,

Otherwise God would be throwing Hell into Hell. That's why people need to be clear what they call Hell. References in the Bible are not all equal.

Why? Just because you and others do not know the difference in hell and the lake of fire.

If one was to receive eternal torment as taught, then the person would still be "living".
IOW being tormented throughout his eternal life, but this verse states that only the righteous receive eternal life.

You could call that living if you want.
Living is where God is at. Death is where God is not. That is existing which everybody will do somewhere.

Gen. 1:27 tells us man is made in the image of God.

Isai 40:28 (KJV) Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

This tell us God is everlasting.

That means we are everlasting or God lied.

Eternal life is for the righteous and all others just cease to exist.

Don't I wish. If I could believe that I could sleep a lot better at night not worrying about the 1,000's of people that I have told about Jesus that did not accept the pardon offered by Jesus.

It would soothe my mind by telling me that, hey you did the best you could but no real big problem they will just be consumed in a moment and it will be over.

You see I take it very personal and if you go to the lake of fire it will be my fault. Because I could not explain it so as you could understand God's plan.

This idea would be more consistent with a loving and just God judging our actions.

No place in the Bible says your eternal destiny will be determined by your actions. If so give me book chapter and verse.

Be sure to make sure it is talking about eternal destiny and not rewards for His children.

Eternal life with God is not a reward.

You can not earn it.

You can not buy it.

It is a gift of God when you accept the pardon offered through Jesus.

have fun,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by purpledawn, posted 01-19-2008 12:01 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by purpledawn, posted 01-19-2008 6:02 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 181 by jar, posted 01-19-2008 7:38 PM ICANT has responded

  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 169 of 196 (449866)
01-19-2008 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by ICANT
01-19-2008 11:36 AM


Re: The Hidden God
ICANT

You the scientific person you tell me why.

OK. Sundials record the change in angle of sunlight falling upon a surface with a shadow cast by a gnomon. To make a short story of this ten degrees movement backwards represents the movement of the sun back through the sky to a point it occupied about 40 minutes previously.

Now,since the movement of the sun through the sky is, in reality, the rotational movement of the earth around its axis this means that the earth has actually moved backward the equivalent of 40 minutes in its west to east movement.
The earth rotates around its axis at speeds varying dependent upon where you live on the planet. At the equator the speed is a little over 1000 miles per hour. At the latitude of the middle east {appox. 30° North} we can determine the circumference to be a little more than 11000 miles and from this we can determine the rotational velocity {11000 / 24hrs} and we find the speed we are moving at here is around 450 mph.
Now because we are all held in place by gravity to the earth we do not notice this velocity because we are moving in sync with it. However in the scenario described in the bible the earth is moved backwards
40 minutes west {against the west to east rotational direction} and this has consequences.

All objects on the face of the earth will still be rotating at different speeds at different places on the planet. Now at the latitude of the middle east this would mean that all things on the surface of earth to varying degrees {animals more than trees and mountains} would now find themselves continuing to move in the direction of the earth former rotational direction at 450 miles per hour.Actually more than that since the sundial indicated this had to occur in less than the time required for the shadow to move enough to be noticed on the plate surface.

SO here you are tending your sheep when all of a sudden you find yourself moving at at least 450 mph hour eastward into a hillside that is itself turning to slag from the heat produced by inertial forces.
That is just a small sampling of what would occur and suffice to say it would be total destruction.

See what I mean now?

Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.

Edited by sidelined, : Edited to get the directions of movement correct.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 11:36 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-19-2008 2:49 PM sidelined has responded
 Message 173 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 2:53 PM sidelined has responded

  
Force
Inactive Member


Message 170 of 196 (449871)
01-19-2008 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Force
01-19-2008 2:34 AM


Re: on getting to heaven
Tal,

I simply do not consider a "being" that is "outside of our reach" or that we do not "understand" to be considered a "God". I find faith topics to be faith topics and they are limited to that level of truth. The level of truth that faith topics are limited to are "not varifiable" truth's.


Thank you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Force, posted 01-19-2008 2:34 AM Force has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13357
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 171 of 196 (449874)
01-19-2008 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by ICANT
01-19-2008 10:16 AM


Re: Why Is Hell The Only Other Option?
ICAN'T writes:

Phat can God cease to exist?

IMB, No. It is one of a couple of things He cannot do. He cannot cease being GOD (nor cease being at all) and He cannot lie (or deceive.) Some would argue the latter of the two points, but not I.

Why is it written or declared that the only conceptualization I can have of GOD must come from the Bible? Did He not give me a mind for a reason?

I do believe that GOD never purposefully created a fallen Satan and an actualized evil, however. I believe that He created a freewill Lucifer who He may well have foreknown would become Satan (or actualized evil) and that when Isaiah speaks of the Lord creating both good and evil, it meant that He created the potential for evil (or rebellion, or self exultation) only to show the antithesis of what He was.

I also will admit that IMB Jesus Christ is Gods character and is necessary to show humanity a reflection of the image that God had for us before we chose instead to freely expand our awareness without obedience. I won't limit my questioning to Scriptural explanations, however. To say that the Bible is the perfect source can only be corroborated in The Bible so that holds no water.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 10:16 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 3:56 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13357
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 172 of 196 (449875)
01-19-2008 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by sidelined
01-19-2008 2:07 PM


Re: The Hidden God
So are you suggesting that even God must bow to the Laws of Physics? :rolleyes:

Hypothetically, God by definition could rewrite all natural laws as He saw fit to do. But then again, He would be playing tricks on the disciplined rational and logical minds that He gave us, and that would be cruel, no? ;)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by sidelined, posted 01-19-2008 2:07 PM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by sidelined, posted 01-19-2008 2:54 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 173 of 196 (449876)
01-19-2008 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by sidelined
01-19-2008 2:07 PM


Re: The Hidden God
Have fun,

Hi sidelined,

See what I mean now?

Thank you for that accurate description of what would happen if the earth had to stop spinning and revolve backwards for 40 minutes. You did not mention all the other chaos it would cause around the world.

But I still don't see the problem.

Remember I am talking about the God that created this universe so He could do anything He wanted too. But I will not claim that He performed such a miracle as to spin the whole thing backwards with no problems.

I learned a song when I was around 10 years old that said He's got the whole world in His hand.

If that is the case and He was to tilt His hand a little bit so as to change the axis of the earth He could produce the same effect with no problems.

Have fun,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by sidelined, posted 01-19-2008 2:07 PM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by sidelined, posted 01-19-2008 2:57 PM ICANT has responded

  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 196 (449877)
01-19-2008 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Thugpreacha
01-19-2008 2:49 PM


Re: The Hidden God
Phat

So are you suggesting that even God must bow to the Laws of Physics?

Goddammit Phat :D. Now I will not get a proper reply from ICANT.

Regardless of what God would do to change the laws of physics Phat, there would have to be consequences that show things to be out of sync with what the regular laws of physics would be and we would notice that.

Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-19-2008 2:49 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 175 of 196 (449880)
01-19-2008 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by ICANT
01-19-2008 2:53 PM


Re: The Hidden God
ICANT

If that is the case and He was to tilt His hand a little bit so as to change the axis of the earth He could produce the same effect with no problems.

Tilting the axis of the earth would not produce the effect described and even if it did then people would notice a shift in the patterns of the stars in the sky and THAT would be recorded.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 2:53 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 4:26 PM sidelined has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 176 of 196 (449885)
01-19-2008 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Thugpreacha
01-19-2008 2:45 PM


Re: Why Is Hell The Only Other Option?
Hi Phat,

Phat writes:

Why is it written or declared that the only conceptualization I can have of GOD must come from the Bible? Did He not give me a mind for a reason?

It is not and the first man in the garden made sure you could have that opportunity. Remember the first lady was told, "God doth know that is the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Gen. 3:5

You have the privilege to dream up any sort of God you desire. Or you can accept the one that God has portrayed in His Word.

Phat writes:

He created the potential for evil


Does Isaiah say that God said He had created evil?
Or did Isaiah say that God said He created the potential for evil?
Like I said if we don't like what God said we can say anything we want too. It just does not change God's Word.

Phat writes:

To say that the Bible is the perfect source can only be corroborated in The Bible so that holds no water.

I think to say the Bible is the perfect source is stretching the truth a little too far.

I do believe God gave the original writers everything He wanted us to know or we needed to know. That Word was perfect.

There have been too many humans involved in what we have today we call the Bible. Remember humans have their own views and many would not be above putting their views into print as they copied the manuscripts.

But I do believe God preserved His truth in the Bible we have today but give man a few more years and it will disappear completely. All of our new bibles are coming from The Masoretic Text which is only about 1000 years old or younger. It was not in the original Hebrew. This text which denies the virgin birth of Christ was gathered and kept by Talmudic, Masoretic Jews.

Any bible text that denies the virgin birth is of the devil.

Jesus quoted the Septuagint and the apostles quoted it. That makes it good enough for me. If I have a question I look it up in the Greek.

Does that mean it has not been altered probably not but it dates back to at least 350BC.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-19-2008 2:45 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 177 of 196 (449888)
01-19-2008 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by sidelined
01-19-2008 2:57 PM


Re: The Hidden God
Hi sidelined,

sidelined writes:

Tilting the axis of the earth would not produce the effect described and even if it did then people would notice a shift in the patterns of the stars in the sky and THAT would be recorded.

Glad to see you didn't give me the response I expected I like this one much better.

First you said it was not possible to produce the desired effect. Are you sure? Remember you are the scientific guy I am the Bible thumper.

Second you said if it was possible it would have been noticed and recorded.

I could pull the old miracle bit and say that would depend on how long God kept the axis tilted He could have put it back in the next couple of hours and nobody would notice. If they did they would not have been able to calibrate their devices quick enough to confirm their observations.

But how about if I say I have read somewhere that just such events have been recorded.

From what little I understand the axis move constantly anyway.
http://www.livescience.com/environment/050330_earth_tilt.html

ABE So what would a little wobble do?

Have fun,

Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by sidelined, posted 01-19-2008 2:57 PM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by sidelined, posted 01-19-2008 5:38 PM ICANT has responded

  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 196 (449897)
01-19-2008 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by ICANT
01-19-2008 4:26 PM


Re: The Hidden God
ICANT

First you said it was not possible to produce the desired effect.Are you sure?

I am sure about the tilt not affecting the position of the sun in the sky which is needed in order to produce the ten degree change in the suns position in the sky.

I could pull the old miracle bit and say that would depend on how long God kept the axis tilted He could have put it back in the next couple of hours and nobody would notice. If they did they would not have been able to calibrate their devices quick enough to confirm their observations.

Their eyes do not need calibrating.Those people on earth for whom the night time is occurring while in the middle east the sundial is recording the ten degree shift would see the stars in the sky also move back ten degrees as well. Also you will notice that the verses say nothing about the degrees being added back on.

But how about if I say I have read somewhere that just such events have been recorded.

From what little I understand the axis move constantly anyway.
http://www.livescience.com/environment/050330_earth_tilt.html

ABE So what would a little wobble do?

Yes, the axis does move constantly and the direction in which the plane that earth's axis moves about shifts direction in a cycle lasting many millenia. What changes is that the direction to which the points north and south on the planet that the axis of rotation occupies trace a circular path in the heavens.
The result is that the north star we have today {polaris} lies within a few degrees of this point but back when the great pyramid was being built the location of the pole rested between two different stars.

If you wish you can read up on the numerous cycles that our planet engages in and you can soon also see what other innumerable effects occur by changing just one simple thing like the motion of the earth.Check out the following article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_wobble

However this again has nothing to do with the verse at hand and how very wrong it is.

Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 4:26 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 7:29 PM sidelined has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1794 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 179 of 196 (449902)
01-19-2008 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by ICANT
01-19-2008 1:37 PM


Re: God and Evil
quote:
Why? Just because you and others do not know the difference in hell and the lake of fire.
So you agree there's a difference. This thread is about Hell and not the lake of fire.

quote:
You could call that living if you want.
Living is where God is at. Death is where God is not. That is existing which everybody will do somewhere.
The resurrection is for the righteous. The unrighteous will be like the criminals burned up in Gehenna. They have no place in the world to come. No resurrection. That is their punishment after death, no eternal life. They cease to exist anywhere. The body is dead and the soul is dead. This penalty is never reversed. There is a difference between punishing a child and tormenting a child.

Where does the Bible support that everyone has eternal life after our physical death, but some won't enjoy it?

quote:
This tell us God is everlasting.
No one's debating whether God is everlasting or not. That's not the issue. The issue is Hell and it's purpose.

quote:
No place in the Bible says your eternal destiny will be determined by your actions. If so give me book chapter and verse.

Be sure to make sure it is talking about eternal destiny and not rewards for His children.

Eternal life with God is not a reward.


The idea of eternal life is a product of the NT.

10:17
As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life ?"

10:18
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good ? No one is good except God alone.

10:19
"You know the commandments, 'DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.' "

10:20
And he said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up."

10:21
Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Notice that the come follow me, was not part of the requirements for eternal life. The actions were.

The way Christianity presents it, it is a reward. Behave and we are rewarded, believe and we are rewarded. Belief with wrong behavior is not actually rewarded.

John 15:10
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Right behavior has to be there.

You haven't shown me that the bible writers support the idea that all people are to have eternal life and only the quality of it changes according to our actions or beliefs.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 1:37 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2008 8:50 PM purpledawn has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 180 of 196 (449914)
01-19-2008 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by sidelined
01-19-2008 5:38 PM


Re: The Hidden God
Hi sidelined,

sidelined writes:

Their eyes do not need calibrating.Those people on earth for whom the night time is occurring while in the middle east the sundial is recording the ten degree shift would see the stars in the sky also move back ten degrees as well. Also you will notice that the verses say nothing about the degrees being added back on.

So you are saying there would be people with a trained eye that would have been watching the night sky 3000 years ago. There was no observatories as we have today. No government grants. These people had to work for a living. I can just see them standing around looking at the sky. Those that might have noticed it would probably thought they had been bewitched.

Why would the verse need to say He returned it. That was not the object of running it back in the beginning. The object was so He would be believed. Don't get any ideas about Him doing something to convince you. He said the only sign you can have is Jesus being in the grave 3 days and 3 nights.Matt. 12:39-40 Sorry.

sidelined writes:

great pyramid was being built the location of the pole rested between two different stars.

I read about that somewhere. If I understand correctly the Pharaoh had a 1/4 mile hall he would walk down with all his gold and ornaments on at one precise moment in the year with the sun shinning on him all the way. This made him the sun god for the next year.
That could not happen in that location today because of the shift you referenced.

Do you have any idea what caused this change in the axis?
After all it was pretty dramatic.

sidelined writes:

However this again has nothing to do with the verse at hand and how very wrong it is.

I guess it is wrong because you said:

sidelined writes:

I am sure about the tilt not affecting the position of the sun in the sky which is needed in order to produce the ten degree change in the suns position in the sky.

I don't guess you would be willing to back that up with a little more than your word would you?

I always thought if you were at an angle to something the closer you got to that object the greater the angle which would make it go away from the direction it was heading. Maybe I was mistaken. Isn't that the reason we have daylight saving time?

I think I have raised enough reasonable doubt that I can discount your statement:

Message 156

sidelined writes:

You cannot use the Bible {written by men such as Isaiah} as evidence of God because that is what they are trying to convince you of in their writings in the first place. In other words what makes us sure or even suspicious that Isaiah has authority to speak of God when the book of Isaiah is written by him.

sidelined writes:

After all let us not forget that Isaiah also wrote this obviously flawed and impossible scenario in verse 38:8

Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

Remember I am not saying this is what happened. I am just saying it is a possibility. With a change in the axis and a little wobble at the same time which would depend on the time of the year as to how much it would have to be, could produce such an occurrence.

But with my God He could have just made the participants involved see it without anything happening. There is a whole lot of people that see things. In fact since He created the universe and knew what was going to happen He could have programed it in, in advance.

Have fun,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by sidelined, posted 01-19-2008 5:38 PM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by sidelined, posted 01-21-2008 12:31 AM ICANT has responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019