Definition please

DHA asks:
I have two questions.
1. Can any two believers on this board agree on a definition of god? 2. What moral code is derived from that god? 1. Can any two believers on this board agree on a definition of god? This message has been edited by Phatboy, 02-13-2005 04:26 AM

Charles, are you suggesting that anyone who believes in "Demons" or that sort of supernatural realm is by definition mentally ill? Would you further suggest that anyone who believes in the supernatural at all is mentally ill?If one person sees a big purple rabbit, quite likely one person is mentally ill. If millions of people claim to know a God that is invisible to you, are they mentally ill or are you perhaps missing something? Just a thought.

Of course I was raised around predisposed ideas of what God was supposed to look like,(bearded white guy in robes with English accent) where He came from, (Heaven, of course) and his role in my life(The one with all the answers whom I prayed to)It was not until I "got saved" that I actually was clearly aware of His reality...presence, and power. I can only describe the experience as awe inspired fear,not fear as in being afraid of having offended or done wrong but rather, fear in an awe and reverential way. I KNEW that I had somehow met a living power that was far greater than anything that my mind could ever explain.NOW...to explain my God to you? Well, I know that He loves you in that I am encouraged to do likewise. I know that He is not a product of my imagination precisely because I cannot explain how He looks. I DO know that He is in charge of me, yet the only real way for you to get to know Him(apart from Him prompting you) is to get to know a believer...on a level that is deeper than mere religious posturing.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 02-13-2005 17:50 AM

If you were certain that you had experienced a ghost, for example, I could probably attempt to examine the evidence and conclude one of the three answers that you mention. If numerous people began to describe this same ghost, I could still insist that they were either deluding themselves or were mistaken, but I should also consider the possibility that they were right.Who am I to deny the testimony of numerous character witnesses? Why should my human derived wisdom of empirical science be my highest standard of judgement?

Well, I can't disagree with you there. The verdict is not yet in on the supernatural, in general. It all boils down to belief, anyway. There are some things that are experienced by humans that leave no verifiable trace except on the human psyche. The term is a figure of speech. This is a whole nother topic, however. Suffice it to say that the day that I got saved, I met God. Me, too. I would wager that if you were near Mt. St. Helens when it blew its top and took out the side of a Mountain, you would experience awe and fear. The same if you were on a beach as the Tsunami rolled towards you and you strived to make out what was happening...the realization would move you.
All I can say is that the realization that I felt moved me. So much so that I am 100% certain of it to this day.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 02-14-2005 00:42 AM

Lets suppose for just a moment that there really is a Spiritual war occurring amongst the interaction between humanity and the spirit world. We basically have two camps. In one, the Holy Spirit.
In the other camp, we have every other imitation and wannabe delusional poser type of spirit or vibe that ever was.
Do you honestly think that this Devil and his little henchmen would ever be so dumb as to show themselves as a reality to everyone? It would scare everyone into the camp of the Holy Spirit! Better to mess with our heads and keep us fighting amongst ourselves....
Of course, Charles, I defer to the Holy Spirit for my ultimate source of wisdom rather than to human reasoning and science. Since you do not, perhaps I will be catagorized as delusional or duped and deluded by religious con men. Or perhaps not. What say, Charles Knight?

Not necessarily. You could ask God to show you how things really are. Your prayer, although individual and unique to you for Him, could go something such as ---God, I don;t know you. I have never met you, and that guy Phatboy tells me that you know more about me than I know about myself.All of my ideas about logic and reason tell me that I am talking to the air right now, but I will be as open as I possibly can be about the possibility that you exist. In all honesty and expectation....AMEN

The key is to be found in the phrase of "disinterested observer". Most eyewitness claims of the supernatural are quite rightly made by interested observers...people who are themselves involved as opposed to detached.I am not saying that Demons cannot be proven..because I have been in what I believed to be a right mind and have observed the phenomena.You ask which is more likely. It depends on how involved one has been. If you actually were at one time a believer, you know that you were interacting with some spiritual and emotional circumstances.
Looking at your life from a detached view, we could say that you were hungry for acceptance emotionally and that the church filled that need for awhile. I am quite certain that the church and the behaviors within it were far from perfect, but apart from all that you yourself had a relationship with God.Later, perhaps, you found a new and more rational group of friends. They were and are, perhaps, much more detached and rational. This is a more solid foundation for you and it is ok.My point is that if you ever DID have a relationship with God then you still do. Do you deny that you ever did? I realize that you question how it is all possible. Keep questioning, yet keep a place in your heart open for Him. All of the logic and reason in the universe will not fill that spot as He can.

Much of that stuff is legend and storie...but much of the other legends are demons. Actually, no. Logically, they are very difficult to believe in, as is God. God is easier, however. I know! I don't blaim every unexplainable phenomena on demons and the spirit realm. I simply believe that this spirit realm is real.This realization is boggling! It means a lot of things. It means that my world view is akin to mental illness. It means that I am accused of blindness and willful ignorance by some respected science minds. I'm not trying to be a detached observer any more, because I simply cannot be detached.I have a different world view than many of you, and all that I ask is that we all love each other (I know its Valentines Day!) and attempt to understand each other. I claim no higher knowledge...just different experience!

Are you a mind reader?

Well, Schraff I know that I am unlike many of my church brethren because I discuss these things with you. Most of them believe in a literal word for word Bible. I believe in a thought for thought literalism but ascribe much of the teaching to parables. I know that most did, before the esteemed naturalists came and showed us the true light! Note this explanation of belief systems: Now..while I am a rationally minded person who does not "see" a spirit realm around me, I have experienced several undeniable situations where such a realm was observed. Indeed, the difference between me and you, Schraff, is that I have chosen Christian Theism as my world view, whereas you may have chosen one more akin to naturalism..(I don't know what yours is yet)
I can see why you would choose such a point of reference. Education and science HAVE debunked and overturned many ancient superstitions and allowed us a glimpse into how and why humans think and behave the way that they do. For me, however, there is a God, and He is personal. He is connected to the Bible...not just because t was the way that I was taught so much as because I have had intellectual confirmations of such a truth.Not to say that the book is inerrently perfect from a naturalist perspective. What then, do I say? That God is perfect and that my inspiration often originates with Him.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 02-15-2005 07:47 AM

Good point, Percy. This brings up the complexities of the society in which we live. The point has been brought up previously that a president, or a judge, or a teacher who has a Christian world view is more likely to base their philosophy and actions of their jobs upon that view. The Christians will respond by saying that they do not want teachers with pure naturalist, secular humanist, or other non Christian world views. In a free society such as ours, it may be best to have our children exposed to all of the different world views.When I have talked to juveniles about what I believe, I explain to them why I believe it, yet I also teach them that my view is not absolute. All that is absolute about me is my love for God.
It is never a question of me teaching what to believe so much as it is teaching them how to think, compare, and contrast.As to teaching about a belief in demons, I would not push this on anyone except to ask them to consider the possibility. It IS based purely on faith until and unless you add the experience.
I would much rather that you understood Jesus first, anyway!

Percy, i may have talked of this here before, but there was one incident in particular where I distinctly and clearly heard a multiplicity of voices coming from someones mouth. That would involve the hearing. As for seeing people "fall over" and vomit, I discount those observations as emotional sensasionalism. Thus, the hearing is the one sense connected verification that I have.

OK, Percy...

• Someone made a weird sound.The sound that I heard was the words,"The Blood, The Blood...no, not the Blood." Nobody in the room made the sound.
  
• Auditory hallucination.possibly. But two other people also heard it.
  
• An auditory misinterpretation of an unusual sound, perhaps someone's shoes against the floor. NO
  
• The sound came from somewhere else, a radio perhaps, not someone's mouth.There were no radios or T.V.s on in the house.
  
• A chorus of invisible a capella elves.
• Poltergeist.
• The person was temporarily possessed by Sun Ra.
• Auditory confirmation of the Christian spirtual world.

I suppose any of the last four could technically be possible. What else can I say? I and two others confirmed the same thing and none of us was playing a trick on the other two.

Of course. And this is why, as Ned has said before, that some things remain and always will remain in the area of Faith and Belief and will NEVER be scientifically proven. The only issue that I have is when people mock those of us who have experienced such things and ask us if we have also met Bigfoot or the invisible pink unicorn! I will admit, however, that much of organized religion does belong in the same catagory with David Blaine.