Definition please

And after all these posts I still don't know what any of these believers mean when thy speak of god or demons. Maybe when they use these words they mean exactly what the one that uses them wants it to.

The key is to be found in the phrase of "disinterested observer". Most eyewitness claims of the supernatural are quite rightly made by interested observers...people who are themselves involved as opposed to detached.I am not saying that Demons cannot be proven..because I have been in what I believed to be a right mind and have observed the phenomena.You ask which is more likely. It depends on how involved one has been. If you actually were at one time a believer, you know that you were interacting with some spiritual and emotional circumstances.
Looking at your life from a detached view, we could say that you were hungry for acceptance emotionally and that the church filled that need for awhile. I am quite certain that the church and the behaviors within it were far from perfect, but apart from all that you yourself had a relationship with God.Later, perhaps, you found a new and more rational group of friends. They were and are, perhaps, much more detached and rational. This is a more solid foundation for you and it is ok.My point is that if you ever DID have a relationship with God then you still do. Do you deny that you ever did? I realize that you question how it is all possible. Keep questioning, yet keep a place in your heart open for Him. All of the logic and reason in the universe will not fill that spot as He can.

Much of that stuff is legend and storie...but much of the other legends are demons. Actually, no. Logically, they are very difficult to believe in, as is God. God is easier, however. I know! I don't blaim every unexplainable phenomena on demons and the spirit realm. I simply believe that this spirit realm is real.This realization is boggling! It means a lot of things. It means that my world view is akin to mental illness. It means that I am accused of blindness and willful ignorance by some respected science minds. I'm not trying to be a detached observer any more, because I simply cannot be detached.I have a different world view than many of you, and all that I ask is that we all love each other (I know its Valentines Day!) and attempt to understand each other. I claim no higher knowledge...just different experience!

Here's a hint. Unless you're a mind reader, when someone tells you that they are or were a believer, take their word for it. You have absolutely no basis whatsoever to second-guess them.I was a believer. I'm not now. That I'm not now doesn't mean I wasn't then. I imagine its the same for Schraf. Not only did we not then, you don't, now. God would have to exist to have a relationship with him.

Are you a mind reader?

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I am quite certain that the church and the behaviors within it were far from perfect, but apart from all that you yourself had a relationship with God.

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What's the first part mean to imply? you are not doing a riverrat and trying to suggest abuse or the like?

Why would I have to be one to know if God exists or not?

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Much of that stuff is legend and storie...but much of the other legends are demons.

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LOLOLOLOL!!!No, it's ALL real!!!It's YOU who are denying the TRUTH!!!Loki and the vengeful animal spirits will come and devour your spirit when you die for refusing to believe in them!!!!When you TRULY BELIEVE and are on the CORRECT path and interpret and understand the holy books the RIGHT WAY (the way I do), only THEN will you be able to detect Loki and the vengeful animal spirits!!!LOLOLOL!!! Actually, no. Logically, they are very difficult to believe in, as is God. God is easier, however.[/quote]No, I disagree.Everybody used to believe in demons, for a long time. It was the explanation everybody used for why bad things happened. It was what a superstitious, ignorant populace used to explain their world.Logically, it's easy to believe in demons.Empirically, however, there's no reason to believe in demons, just like there's no reason to believe in Santa Claus or the monster under your bed.

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I know! I don't blaim every unexplainable phenomena on demons and the spirit realm. I simply believe that this spirit realm is real.

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Why?And how is this different from believing in the monster under your bed or Santa Claus?

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This realization is boggling! It means a lot of things. It means that my world view is akin to mental illness.

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You are probably not mentally ill.To self-delude is to be human.To believe things because you have been taught them and are encouraged to believe them by a supportive, like-minded community is to be human.People used to be taught that Apollo/Helios pulled the sun across the sky in his firey chariot. Everybody in ancient Greece/Rome supported this belief for centuries.Your belief in demons is exactly like the Ancients' belief in that firey chariot.

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It means that I am accused of blindness and willful ignorance by some respected science minds. I'm not trying to be a detached observer any more, because I simply cannot be detached.

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Can you be self-deluded, though, and is this delusion strengthened and supported by a community of like-minded people, even thought it is false?

Well, Schraff I know that I am unlike many of my church brethren because I discuss these things with you. Most of them believe in a literal word for word Bible. I believe in a thought for thought literalism but ascribe much of the teaching to parables. I know that most did, before the esteemed naturalists came and showed us the true light! Note this explanation of belief systems: Now..while I am a rationally minded person who does not "see" a spirit realm around me, I have experienced several undeniable situations where such a realm was observed. Indeed, the difference between me and you, Schraff, is that I have chosen Christian Theism as my world view, whereas you may have chosen one more akin to naturalism..(I don't know what yours is yet)
I can see why you would choose such a point of reference. Education and science HAVE debunked and overturned many ancient superstitions and allowed us a glimpse into how and why humans think and behave the way that they do. For me, however, there is a God, and He is personal. He is connected to the Bible...not just because t was the way that I was taught so much as because I have had intellectual confirmations of such a truth.Not to say that the book is inerrently perfect from a naturalist perspective. What then, do I say? That God is perfect and that my inspiration often originates with Him.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 02-15-2005 07:47 AM

Accepting the existence of demons on faith is one thing, believing you have evidence of demons is quite another. Are you applying scientific standards of evidence, or some other standard? If some other standard, then from the perspective of science your belief in demons is based upon faith, not evidence.--Percy

Good point, Percy. This brings up the complexities of the society in which we live. The point has been brought up previously that a president, or a judge, or a teacher who has a Christian world view is more likely to base their philosophy and actions of their jobs upon that view. The Christians will respond by saying that they do not want teachers with pure naturalist, secular humanist, or other non Christian world views. In a free society such as ours, it may be best to have our children exposed to all of the different world views.When I have talked to juveniles about what I believe, I explain to them why I believe it, yet I also teach them that my view is not absolute. All that is absolute about me is my love for God.
It is never a question of me teaching what to believe so much as it is teaching them how to think, compare, and contrast.As to teaching about a belief in demons, I would not push this on anyone except to ask them to consider the possibility. It IS based purely on faith until and unless you add the experience.
I would much rather that you understood Jesus first, anyway!

But you're pushing it here, because in Message 144 you said you'd observed the spirit realm: Do you really mean "observed"? Observed, as in the five senses observed? If so, can others (me, for example) also observe it? How would I go about observing it? Give me the instructions.I don't myself believe you've ever observed the spiritual realm, though I believe that you believe you have. This is at the heart of the point that Schraf has been hammering on. Your belief in demons is no different than an ancient Greek's belief in Zeus. Your belief that you've observed the spiritual realm of God is no different than an ancient Greek's belief that he observed the spiritual realm of Zeus. He was as sincere in his belief in Zeus as you are in God and Jesus.What we're asking you is the difference between you and this ancient Greek. Why was he wrong about his spiritual realm and you correct about yours?My original reply was triggered by your use of the word "observed". If by "observed" you meant a feeling in your mind that you interpreted as the spiritual realm then I have no objections. But if you really believe you observed the spiritual realm through one or more of your five senses then my gut level reaction is, "Tell me how!"--Percy

Percy, i may have talked of this here before, but there was one incident in particular where I distinctly and clearly heard a multiplicity of voices coming from someones mouth. That would involve the hearing. As for seeing people "fall over" and vomit, I discount those observations as emotional sensasionalism. Thus, the hearing is the one sense connected verification that I have.

I originally responded because you said you had observed the spiritual world, but I see nothing in this that points conclusively or even tentatively to the spritual world as the source. Some possibilities:

• Someone made a weird sound.
• Auditory hallucination.
• An auditory misinterpretation of an unusual sound, perhaps someone's shoes against the floor.
• The sound came from somewhere else, a radio perhaps, not someone's mouth.
• A chorus of invisible a capella elves.
• Poltergeist.
• The person was temporarily possessed by Sun Ra.
• Auditory confirmation of the Christian spirtual world.

Concluding that you've actually observed the spiritual world requires more than just, "I can't explain this."--Percy

OK, Percy...

• Someone made a weird sound.The sound that I heard was the words,"The Blood, The Blood...no, not the Blood." Nobody in the room made the sound.
  
• Auditory hallucination.possibly. But two other people also heard it.
  
• An auditory misinterpretation of an unusual sound, perhaps someone's shoes against the floor. NO
  
• The sound came from somewhere else, a radio perhaps, not someone's mouth.There were no radios or T.V.s on in the house.
  
• A chorus of invisible a capella elves.
• Poltergeist.
• The person was temporarily possessed by Sun Ra.
• Auditory confirmation of the Christian spirtual world.

I suppose any of the last four could technically be possible. What else can I say? I and two others confirmed the same thing and none of us was playing a trick on the other two.