Definition please

Ah, the impossible challenge, what a joke.

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I know you don't and your angry that I now said that to you.

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Your biggest problem and it's one you share with the banned member willowtree is the way you project onto other people. Why would I be angry that you have just posted that? Think about that and try and come up with a sensible answer.You have to understand that many of us come from nations where the christian religion has not been a major forces in our lives and hold no real influence. It's not your christianity that irrates me, it's the mindreading and projection of your religious worldviews to try and explain our behaviour that's the problem.I'm not going to lie to you, I engage you because I found your views laughable and it's a nice divertion when I have writers block. I can't remember the last time religion ever came up in my of my conversations away from this board. Hardly the actions of someone full of "anger".On other forums, Muslims get it just as hard in the neck from me when they try the same tricks. (I'd like to see a few more muslim members here - I always have fun with their ideas of Science and the Koran).

Lets suppose for just a moment that there really is a Spiritual war occurring amongst the interaction between humanity and the spirit world. We basically have two camps. In one, the Holy Spirit.
In the other camp, we have every other imitation and wannabe delusional poser type of spirit or vibe that ever was.
Do you honestly think that this Devil and his little henchmen would ever be so dumb as to show themselves as a reality to everyone? It would scare everyone into the camp of the Holy Spirit! Better to mess with our heads and keep us fighting amongst ourselves....
Of course, Charles, I defer to the Holy Spirit for my ultimate source of wisdom rather than to human reasoning and science. Since you do not, perhaps I will be catagorized as delusional or duped and deluded by religious con men. Or perhaps not. What say, Charles Knight?

Kind of an arrogant reply. So you think you are above people who believe in God? Well you sure wanted to stick it up my ass before when I said something to the same effect. You often get angry at me. Well that wouldn't be me, but that comes from yourself. That is the Holy SPirit convicting you of whatever wrong you have in your life. It's funny how think I have the power to do that.Yes, some things about God are clearer to me than you perhaps, as I am trying to be obediant to his word. I try to clear my mind and body of all that is wrong by his word, and that allows me to see things from a different perspective.I do not put myself above anyone, and take full responsibilty for my actions. I am far from perfect.

you were comparing yourself to Jesus before - how is that pride?

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Charles, what do you think makes pieces on a Oujia board move?

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The Ideomotor Effectideomotor effect - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.comThe ideomotor effect refers to the influence of suggestion on involuntary and unconscious motor behavior. The term "ideomotor action" was coined by William B. Carpenter in 1852 in his explanation for the movements of rods and pendulums by dowsers, and some table turning or lifting by spirit mediums (the ones that weren't accomplished by cheating). Carpenter argued that muscular movement can be initiated by the mind independently of volition or emotions. We may not be aware of it, but suggestions can be made to the mind by others or by observations. Those suggestions can influence the mind and affect motor behavior.Scientific tests by American psychologist William James, French chemist Michel Chevreul, English scientist Michael Faraday, and American psychologist Ray Hyman have demonstrated that many phenomena attributed to spiritual or paranormal forces, or to mysterious "energies," are actually due to ideomotor action. Furthermore, these tests demonstrate that "honest, intelligent people can unconsciously engage in muscular activity that is consistent with their expectations" (Hyman 1999). They also show that suggestions that can guide behavior can be given by subtle clues (Hyman 1977).The movement of pointers on Ouija boards, of a facilitator's hands in facilitated communication, of hands and arms in applied kinesiology, and of some behaviors attributed to hypnotic suggestion, are due to ideomotor action.

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I know that He is not a product of my imagination precisely because I cannot explain how He looks.

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I don't know what the Boogeyman looks like, either.Does that also mean that the Boogeyman is not a product of my imagination?I am rather astounded at your reasoning, Phat:"I don't know something, therefore I cannot possibly be imagining it."

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If you were certain that you had experienced a ghost, for example, I could probably attempt to examine the evidence and conclude one of the three answers that you mention. If numerous people began to describe this same ghost, I could still insist that they were either deluding themselves or were mistaken, but I should also consider the possibility that they were right.

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Of course you are allowed to consider the possibility.Investigators and others who want to believe in ghosts, however, generally fail to consider Charles' three alternative hypothese, all of which have been shown to be true in many, many past cases.

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Who am I to deny the testimony of numerous character witnesses? Why should my human derived wisdom of empirical science be my highest standard of judgement?

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We know, through the work of research psychologists, that eyewitness testimony is quite unreliable.Human memory is not a video tape, it is a reconstruction. It is very easy to misremember the details of an event, especially when our emotions are running high. We can be so biased that we can change our memory outright to be something more palatable to ourselves.Between the plastic, malleable, subjective memory of individuals and the bias-eliminating precision of scientific methodology, I consider science much, much more reliable at being able to show us what we can detect about our world.

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Do you honestly think that this Devil and his little henchmen would ever be so dumb as to show themselves as a reality to everyone? It would scare everyone into the camp of the Holy Spirit! Better to mess with our heads and keep us fighting amongst ourselves....
Of course, Charles, I defer to the Holy Spirit for my ultimate source of wisdom rather than to human reasoning and science.

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So, what you are saying is that these demons have real effects upon the world and on people, but when anyone who tries to investigate these real effects, they hide themselves away?How convenient. The above is the ultimate irrefutable, airtight hypothesis. Your proposal is untestable, so there is no reason to believe it exists anywhere but in your own head.It's just like the superhero who can turn himself invisible, but only when nobody is looking.

Not necessarily. You could ask God to show you how things really are. Your prayer, although individual and unique to you for Him, could go something such as ---God, I don;t know you. I have never met you, and that guy Phatboy tells me that you know more about me than I know about myself.All of my ideas about logic and reason tell me that I am talking to the air right now, but I will be as open as I possibly can be about the possibility that you exist. In all honesty and expectation....AMEN

And with this prayer god will reveal himself in an unambiguous manner? Okay, I will try it...Nothing. How surprising. I'm afraid your incantation didn't work, Phatboy. Of course, the position will be taken that I wasn't sincere enough or some other equally unprovable and convienent dodge will be provided.It's like the demon thing a few posts back as pointed out be Schrafinator, an entirely unprovable, self-referential claim. How can adults believe this stuff? Do you also believe in Santa, Phatboy?

http://news.independent.co.uk/media/story.jsp?story=610887 First it screened an abortion, then an autopsy. Now, Channel 4 is set to spark a fresh row by televising the exorcism of a man who claims he is possessed by evil spirits. Last night the channel defended its decision to runThe Exorcism, saying it was a "scientific experiment" and would be broadcast after the 9pm watershed.

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But there is concern within the Church of England that those willing to put themselves forward for exorcisms are more likely to be mentally ill than possessed.

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Not necessarily. You could ask God to show you how things really are. Your prayer, although individual and unique to you for Him, could go something such as ---God, I don;t know you. I have never met you, and that guy Phatboy tells me that you know more about me than I know about myself.All of my ideas about logic and reason tell me that I am talking to the air right now, but I will be as open as I possibly can be about the possibility that you exist. In all honesty and expectation....AMEN

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Been there, done that. I used to be a believer, you know, for nearly half my life.But whatever answer I got would still be untestable, and nobody would have any reason to believe that what I came up with exists anywhere except inside my own mind."Testable", from a methodological sense, means "reliable effects observed by a disinterested observer." It also means that there has to exist some evidence, if found, which would falsify the hypothesis.Your hypothesis is that demons exist, and have effects upon people.When we ask for a demonstration of these effects, you say that the demons are undetectable whenever anybody tries to detect them.That is a watertight, untestable hypothesis, and means that there is no reason to think demons are the cause of anything.Of course, it doesn't mean that demons aren't the cause. It might be just as you say. But it is just as valid for me to say that fairies or aliens or animal spirits are the cause of these effects.Which is more likely, phat; that humans are mistaken and self-deluded, but encouraged by their religious communities and cultures to believe in certain imaginary superforces (demons, aliens, Loki, fairies, animal spirits, etc.), or that there is a battle between humans and demons that only the believers seem to be able to detect?This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 02-14-2005 14:14 AM

You know, the religious blindness that so many believers possess is simply remarkable to me.I am sure that phatboy, and many others would scoff at the idea that fairies, animal spirits, all of the greek and roman gods, the norse gods, the scores of Hindu gods, and innumerable other supernatural concepts actually exist.But demons, well, sure demons are perfectly reasonable to believe in!I mean, come on! We live in an age of space exploration, computers, gene mapping, and very advanced science and technology, but there are seemingly many peple out there who still rely on demons to explain things they don't understand or are too uncomfortable with attributing to human behavior.

I was comparing myself, as in I wasn't even good enough to wear his shoes. I am only human, it's my desire to be "Jesus like" and "in Christ" but I fall way short of that.I gave it an effort, he obviously doesn't want to see where I am coming from. Even if he doesn't agree, the words have been spoken. If they are true, then there is the great possiblity that at some point the truth will find its way through all the muck. I never expect any immediate results, after all it took me this long to come this far. Each of us have our own paths.