Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,824 Year: 4,081/9,624 Month: 952/974 Week: 279/286 Day: 40/46 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why do you believe what you believe?
nator
Member (Idle past 2197 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 8 of 108 (226427)
07-26-2005 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rahvin
07-25-2005 4:15 PM


I was raised in a Catholic household in a very christian locale, although nobody in my house ever read the Bible or talked about religion at all at home. Certainly nobody seemed like they were trying to become a better person; mostly us kids were taught in CCD to not do a long list of things so we wouldn't sin, and thus go to hell.
I stopped attending church almost immediately upon entering university and although I had a slight feeling of dread that something terrible would happen to me, it never did.
I believed in the Christian God until my early twenties when I started to learn about other religions and also non-theistic philosophies and world views. Gradually, I came to the place of agnosticism through logic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rahvin, posted 07-25-2005 4:15 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2197 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 21 of 108 (226593)
07-26-2005 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by GDR
07-26-2005 5:50 PM


Re: Natural versus metaphysical
quote:
Fair enough, but you have come to the conclusion that design in this case has been driven by random chance and natural selection. I have come to the conclusion that design came about by an external designer. I suggest that either decision is a rational one and we have just come to different conclusions.
But what is your conclusion based upon? What rationale? What evidence?
If it is not based upon any, or the logic requires any unsupported assumptions, then it is not a rational belief.
For example, what evidence do you have of external design of natural phenomena?
quote:
What is the firm basis of evidence for the naturalist explanation?
Well, how about over 200 years of experimentation and repetition of observations and 200 years of borne out predictions of future events based upon past events?
quote:
Accepting random chance and natural selection that has no metaphysical interference is just as much a gut feeling as is believing that there is metaphysical interference in the evolutionary process.
No, it doesn't.
There is no reason to infer metaphysical interference since there is no evidence of it.
To claim that there is or was supernatural interference is to make a rather enormous unwarranted unsupported assumption that has exactly zero predictive value.
quote:
Science can only determine what has happened. It cannot empirically test why it happened or what precipitated it.
Nonsense. Science is precisely the business of testing predictions.
It is through the repeated testing the implications of theory that we learn anything at all in science.
quote:
What it was that caused those mutations to occur in the manner that they did is a mystery no matter how you look at it.
Actually, we do understand many mechanisms of mutation.
quote:
As I said earlier that I believe that the finely balanced design in the natural world is evidence.
Exactly what kind of design do you consider to be "finely balanced"?
Please be specific with your examples.
quote:
Our consciousness and our code of conduct are evidences.
Why? Why couldn't these things have been selected for without the supernatural?
quote:
The Bible is evidence.
Why couldn't the bible have been written only by men, just as the thousands of other religious books ever to have been written?
quote:
Out of body experiences are evidence.
Out of body experiences are due to oxygen starvation of the brain and have been induced with certain chemicals.
quote:
Self-awareness is evidence.
Several of our primate relatives are self-aware, as are dolphins. It seems that social creatures with large brains have the capacity for self-awareness. Why is this evidence of the supernatural?
quote:
None of this can be tested in a lab but I do believe that there is truth that exists outside of science.
None of it can be tested at all. It is pure personal, irrational belief.
Which is fine. But it ain't proof in any way, shape, or form.
quote:
You look at the evidence and come to a completely different conclusion than I do, but it is still evidence.
But not all conclusions are warranted, or correct.
Your conclusions are not based upon evidence, they are based upon faith.
Which is fine, but there's absolutely not explanitory power to "I want to believe this about the evidence because I want to."
If someone concluded that the reason the sun travels across the sky is because Apollo pulls it in his firey chariot, and another person concluded that the sun appears to ravel across the sky because of the Earth's orbit around the sun, would you consider the first person's explanation to be equally valid simply because she said that "The evidence is the same, we've just come to different conclusions."?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by GDR, posted 07-26-2005 5:50 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by GDR, posted 07-26-2005 10:52 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2197 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 22 of 108 (226596)
07-26-2005 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by GDR
07-26-2005 8:58 PM


quote:
There is first a formless void, then land and oceans formed, then plants, then animals and finally people. It isn't science, but I just find it interesting that the account does in a very rough manner approximate evolution.
I find it interesting that nowhere does Genesis mention bacteria, considering it has been the dominant life form for the entirety of the Earth's history, and existed long before land-based plants.
God sure does LOVE bacteria, since He made them in such abundance that they cover nearly every inch of the planet.
And beetles. He really likes beetles, too.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 07-26-2005 09:51 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by GDR, posted 07-26-2005 8:58 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 07-26-2005 9:52 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2197 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 24 of 108 (226600)
07-26-2005 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
07-26-2005 9:52 PM


Re: Not that hard to understand
Yes, of course I know that. I was just poking a little fun at GDR, is all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 07-26-2005 9:52 PM jar has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2197 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 29 of 108 (226679)
07-27-2005 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by GDR
07-26-2005 10:52 PM


Re: Natural versus metaphysical
Ar we to understand that you believe that the Christian God controls human evolution?
How much has he controlled it? Are birth defects and genetic disease evidence of this contol?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by GDR, posted 07-26-2005 10:52 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Parasomnium, posted 07-27-2005 7:14 AM nator has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024