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Author Topic:   Where/how do believers draw the line and why?
ringo
Member
Posts: 17444
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 16 of 88 (434095)
11-14-2007 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Spektical
11-13-2007 3:49 PM


Re: Just So Stories
Spektical writes:

but what does that have to do with the story of babel?

To spell it out for you, here's the part of Message 11 that answers your question:

quote:
... some explanation was needed for the different languages.

That's all. Why do people speak different languages? Because, once upon a time, a bunch of people get together and tried to build a tower to heaven. God stopped them by making them all speak different languages so they couldn't cooperate.

We know it's just a story because there are lots of towers-to-heaven all over Mesopotamia. They were built by people who spoke different languages and there were different languages before any of them were built.

It's just like Kipling's story about how the elephant got its trunk (which also has a talking snake).


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Spektical, posted 11-13-2007 3:49 PM Spektical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Spektical, posted 11-14-2007 3:16 PM ringo has responded

  
Spektical
Member (Idle past 4267 days)
Posts: 119
Joined: 10-16-2007


Message 17 of 88 (434112)
11-14-2007 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ringo
11-14-2007 1:24 PM


Re: Just So Stories
I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is more to the tower story than being a 'just so story'. Just like the grim fairy tales....or maybe I'm just giving the people of back then way too much intellectual credit.

The question is still unaswered....why do religious people take some stories literally and some not? What makes them so sure about their decision? and if these stories are open to interpretation because of individuality, then why universalize them into beliefs?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ringo, posted 11-14-2007 1:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 11-14-2007 3:31 PM Spektical has not yet responded
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 11-14-2007 4:26 PM Spektical has responded
 Message 20 by Archer Opteryx, posted 11-15-2007 1:03 AM Spektical has not yet responded
 Message 25 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-15-2007 11:56 AM Spektical has not yet responded
 Message 77 by ICANT, posted 11-16-2007 2:26 AM Spektical has not yet responded

    
jar
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Posts: 31518
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 18 of 88 (434115)
11-14-2007 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Spektical
11-14-2007 3:16 PM


Re: Just So Stories
I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is more to the tower story than being a 'just so story'.

Okay. Perhaps since you know that you can tell us what more there is?

The question is still unaswered....why do religious people take some stories literally and some not?

Well, I tried to answer that back in Message 6 and again in Message 11.

There are parts that are explicitly figurative.

There are also parts that may have been considered factual at the time when they were written but have since been shown to be wrong. The evidence of reality certainly trumps a late stone age or early bronze age account of nature.

Did you read Message 6 or Message 11?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Spektical, posted 11-14-2007 3:16 PM Spektical has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17444
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 19 of 88 (434138)
11-14-2007 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Spektical
11-14-2007 3:16 PM


Re: Just So Stories
Spektical writes:

The question is still unaswered....why do religious people take some stories literally and some not?

That question has been answered. Stories are not taken literally if there are clues that they didn't really happen. You seem to be addressing only those "religious people" who ignore the clues and believe contrary to the evidence. Why would you expect rational answers from people whose beliefs are irrational?


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Spektical, posted 11-14-2007 3:16 PM Spektical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 9:52 AM ringo has responded

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1888 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 20 of 88 (434235)
11-15-2007 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Spektical
11-14-2007 3:16 PM


Re: Just So Stories
Spek: I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is more to the tower story than being a 'just so story'. Just like the grim fairy tales....or maybe I'm just giving the people of back then way too much intellectual credit.

I agree that it's never a good idea to sell our ancestors short. They lacked a lot of information we take for granted, but what they knew they really did know, and they built entire systems of shared knowledge on it. Can you write in Harrapan or build Stonehenge or precisely navigate a canoe on the open ocean under overcast skies? Neither can I. As Jar notes, their systems of thought worked fine for explaining the observations they were in a position to make.

It isn't clear to me, though, what you intend to suggest with the idea that there is 'more to the tower story.' What kind of meaning do you have in mind?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Spektical, posted 11-14-2007 3:16 PM Spektical has not yet responded

  
Spektical
Member (Idle past 4267 days)
Posts: 119
Joined: 10-16-2007


Message 21 of 88 (434289)
11-15-2007 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by ringo
11-14-2007 4:26 PM


Re: Just So Stories
Why would you expect rational answers from people whose beliefs are irrational?

Because I have faith and hope in humanity.

The story of Babel is a very profound one to me because it conveys how wonderfully creative yet trapped the human race was/is. It shows that if we came together alot of things can be accomplished. God is a means, not an end, and hence is ultimately irrelevant to our lives.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 11-14-2007 4:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 11-15-2007 11:20 AM Spektical has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17444
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 22 of 88 (434302)
11-15-2007 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Spektical
11-15-2007 9:52 AM


Re: Just So Stories
Spektical writes:

The story of Babel is a very profound one to me because it conveys how wonderfully creative yet trapped the human race was/is. It shows that if we came together alot of things can be accomplished.

You're ignoring the point of the story: that God prevented that accomplishment from happening.

God is a means, not an end, and hence is ultimately irrelevant to our lives.

Why on earth would devout God-believers write a story about God being irrelevant?

The question is, "Where/how do believers draw the line and why?" - not "How can Spektical turn the Bible into a warm-and-fuzzy celebration of human creativity?"


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 9:52 AM Spektical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 11:29 AM ringo has responded
 Message 78 by Archer Opteryx, posted 11-16-2007 4:39 AM ringo has not yet responded

  
Spektical
Member (Idle past 4267 days)
Posts: 119
Joined: 10-16-2007


Message 23 of 88 (434306)
11-15-2007 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by ringo
11-15-2007 11:20 AM


Re: Just So Stories
Good and true point, God is a hindrance. You should try applying the opposite to the stories in the bible and see what happens (for fun!).

The question is, "Where/how do believers draw the line and why?" - not "How can Spektical turn the Bible into a warm-and-fuzzy celebration of human creativity?"

That's a very obtuse perspective Ringo. Maybe I should've just plainly asked why are religious people living a lie? But of course the admins of this forum would never allow that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 11-15-2007 11:20 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 11-15-2007 11:50 AM Spektical has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17444
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 24 of 88 (434311)
11-15-2007 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Spektical
11-15-2007 11:29 AM


Re: Just So Stories
Spektical writes:

Maybe I should've just plainly asked why are religious people living a lie?

There's a difference between "living a lie" and believing in silly things. If you really want to know what that difference is, stop belittling every answer.

You've been told that Babel is a just-so story intended to explain the diversity of languages. Whether the event is historically accurate or not, that's the reason it's in the Bible. You're the only one who's suggesting otherwise.

Maybe you need to pick another example.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 11:29 AM Spektical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 11:57 AM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13051
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 25 of 88 (434315)
11-15-2007 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Spektical
11-14-2007 3:16 PM


Re: Just So Stories
Spektical writes:

The question is still unanswered....why do religious people take some stories literally and some not? What makes them so sure about their decision? and if these stories are open to interpretation because of individuality, then why universalize them into beliefs?

Many churches have "official" Belief statements, but that has never stopped individuals from adopting the beliefs that they choose to adopt.

It has been virtually proven that there was no global flood, for example. I look at the story as symbolic, anyway. Consider the water level required for the Ark to end up way up on Mount Ararat! I guarantee you that it would take far longer than 80 days for the water to recede.(where would it go?)

Conversely, I do believe in the story of the Virgin birth of Jesus, even though there is also evidence by many scholars that refutes it. I believe that Jesus is definitely Gods son in a way that none of us could ever be.

I have had debates and discussions over the idea of Jesus being fully God and fully human while on Earth versus Jesus being human only (and therefore subject to imperfection, as are we)

Now....am I sure about my beliefs? My decisions on what to accept and what to reject? I am only sure that I am comfortable with them in the context of my relationship with God as I understand and perceive Him.

My beliefs are unprovable (which is why they are called beliefs) and I cannot say that they are any more right than anyone elses beliefs.

My beliefs have been shaped by experience as well as by my own logic, reason, and perception of reality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Spektical, posted 11-14-2007 3:16 PM Spektical has not yet responded

  
Spektical
Member (Idle past 4267 days)
Posts: 119
Joined: 10-16-2007


Message 26 of 88 (434316)
11-15-2007 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by ringo
11-15-2007 11:50 AM


Re: Just So Stories
That's the reason for YOU and the rest of the people who have been brainwashed in early childhood. Its not the reason for ME, and to be close minded about accepting the possibility of other interpretations of ancient stories such as biblical ones is a sin.

I'll give you another example: The story of Cain and Abel.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 11-15-2007 11:50 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 11-15-2007 12:06 PM Spektical has responded
 Message 28 by ringo, posted 11-15-2007 12:08 PM Spektical has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31518
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 27 of 88 (434318)
11-15-2007 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Spektical
11-15-2007 11:57 AM


Re: Just So Stories
That's the reason for YOU and the rest of the people who have been brainwashed in early childhood. Its not the reason for ME, and to be close minded about accepting the possibility of other interpretations of ancient stories such as biblical ones is a sin.

Wow, Holy Falsehoods, Nonsense and Shapeshifting rolled into one.

The thread asked why believers accept certain things. Why you accept things is irrelevant.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 11:57 AM Spektical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 12:10 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17444
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 28 of 88 (434319)
11-15-2007 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Spektical
11-15-2007 11:57 AM


Re: Just So Stories
Spektical writes:

That's the reason for YOU and the rest of the people who have been brainwashed in early childhood.

That's what you asked for in the OP. If you want to spout your own opinions, start a blog.

I'll give you another example: The story of Cain and Abel.

What about 'em?


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 11:57 AM Spektical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 12:11 PM ringo has responded

  
Spektical
Member (Idle past 4267 days)
Posts: 119
Joined: 10-16-2007


Message 29 of 88 (434320)
11-15-2007 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
11-15-2007 12:06 PM


Re: Just So Stories
Wow, Holy Falsehoods, Nonsense and Shapeshifting rolled into one.

Why?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 11-15-2007 12:06 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 11-15-2007 12:15 PM Spektical has responded

    
Spektical
Member (Idle past 4267 days)
Posts: 119
Joined: 10-16-2007


Message 30 of 88 (434322)
11-15-2007 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by ringo
11-15-2007 12:08 PM


Re: Just So Stories
What is the popular interpretation of this story?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by ringo, posted 11-15-2007 12:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 11-15-2007 12:26 PM Spektical has responded

    
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