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Author Topic:   Is God determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence? Part II
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 171 (248907)
10-04-2005 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-04-2005 1:00 AM


Reframing and/or rewording the O.P.
Mr Ex, I am interested in continuing a discussion in some form or another.
Can you reframe your opening post? Assert something, propose something, or defend something.
Post it as a reply to me, and we will talk about it when I get home from work.
This message has been edited by Phat, 10-04-2005 03:15 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-04-2005 1:00 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-05-2005 1:30 AM Phat has not replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 32 of 171 (248997)
10-05-2005 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
10-04-2005 5:15 PM


Re: Reframing and/or rewording the O.P.
Sure. What do you want me to clarify?
I guess the basic idea that I was trying to get across is that the idea of God being determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence seems to be a logical fallacy to some extent. I think everyone who believes in God also believes that God revealed himself to them in some way or another -- whether by the Scriptures, or personal experience, or even by nature itself.
In short, if God didn't reveal himself in any way at all (and if he is indeed outside all human experience), then we wouldn't even know he existed in the first place. As such, it would seem to me to be an exceptionally bizarre and cruel thing for him to damn someone for not believing in him -- especially if he were indeed "hiding" so as to generate "faith" in himself.
The whole position makes no sense to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 10-04-2005 5:15 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by DominionSeraph, posted 10-06-2005 9:07 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4754 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 33 of 171 (249631)
10-06-2005 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
06-12-2005 9:22 AM


That's not even a good fake. Perspective and shading are off for the left 2/3rds of the top of the building.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 06-12-2005 9:22 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-07-2005 1:34 AM DominionSeraph has replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4754 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 34 of 171 (249632)
10-06-2005 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-05-2005 1:30 AM


Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
I guess the basic idea that I was trying to get across is that the idea of God being determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence seems to be a logical fallacy to some extent.
The idea is fine. Supporting it, however, is another story.
If we add in the typical assertion that God always gets what he wants, having support for it would be a logical contradiction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-05-2005 1:30 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-07-2005 2:13 AM DominionSeraph has replied
 Message 37 by purpledawn, posted 10-07-2005 10:33 AM DominionSeraph has not replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 35 of 171 (249692)
10-07-2005 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by DominionSeraph
10-06-2005 8:59 PM


DominionSeraph writes:
That's not even a good fake. Perspective and shading are off for the left 2/3rds of the top of the building.
Go tell that to the thousands that saw her there -- some using spotlights by the way.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-07-2005 02:28 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by DominionSeraph, posted 10-06-2005 8:59 PM DominionSeraph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by DominionSeraph, posted 10-31-2005 5:21 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 36 of 171 (249695)
10-07-2005 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by DominionSeraph
10-06-2005 9:07 PM


DominionSeraph writes:
The idea is fine. Supporting it, however, is another story.
Then maybe you should backtrack and read through this thread...
My Invitation -- Enjoy...
...then, after you've read through it, please come back and explain to me what support about this fine idea you don't agree with.
DominionSeraph writes:
If we add in the typical assertion that God always gets what he wants, having support for it would be a logical contradiction.
Typical assertion?
That's a very strange assertion you've made -- especially since, at least according to the Christian Scriptures, God wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth -- and yet, again according to the Christian Scriptures, some will have their whole body to be thrown into hell.
I'm fairly sure that the people going to hell are the ones who are not saved. Right?
Apparently God doesn't always gets what he wants now does he?
Anyway, I invite you to read through the previous thread linked above and comment in this current thread as you see fit. Please remember, however, that this isn't a question about the valdity of the evidence presented. This is a question about God being determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence or not. It assumes that people's various religious perspectives, even those outside the Judeo-Christian-Muslim faiths, have something positive to contribute to this question.
m'kay?
Edit: clarified various points.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-07-2005 09:49 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by DominionSeraph, posted 10-06-2005 9:07 PM DominionSeraph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by DominionSeraph, posted 10-31-2005 5:28 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 37 of 171 (249755)
10-07-2005 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by DominionSeraph
10-06-2005 9:07 PM


Showing Determination
From original OP.
Do you think God is determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence -- or do you think that God is determined to allow ample proof or evidence of his existence?
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
It was crashfrog that pointed out some claim that God does not allow his existence to be scientifically substantiated, because to do so would eliminate the need for faith.
Unfortunately, Mr. Ex Nihilo has not provided any support that God is DETERMINED to allow proof, scientifically substantiated or otherwise, of his existence TODAY.
IMO, if a God is DETERMINED to allow his existence to be known to all humans today, then his existence would be known to all people and by all means of substantiation.
If a God is DETERMINED not to allow his existence to be known to those without faith, then this God is concealing his existence from those without faith. Although we can't know the intent behind the concealment, we could speculate that the intent is to generate faith, since one would need faith to see the evidence.
Whether it is tradition or from the Bible, there are religious teachings that God conceals Himself and desires that we seek Him with all our heart and soul.
If a God is DETERMINED not to allow evidence of his existence to be known to anyone today, then he won't. IMO, the lack of scientifically substantiated evidence of his existence would support this.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by DominionSeraph, posted 10-06-2005 9:07 PM DominionSeraph has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-07-2005 1:36 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 38 of 171 (249832)
10-07-2005 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by purpledawn
10-07-2005 10:33 AM


Re: Showing Determination
purpledawn writes:
Unfortunately, Mr. Ex Nihilo has not provided any support that God is DETERMINED to allow proof, scientifically substantiated or otherwise, of his existence TODAY.
In your opinion, of course.
But, then again, your'e still waiting for God to light your candle, right?
How's that going anyway?
Anyway, let's get to your points below:
purpledawn writes:
IMO, if a God is DETERMINED to allow his existence to be known to all humans today, then his existence would be known to all people and by all means of substantiation.
I'm glad you added the part about this being your opinion.
Ok...so..um...how do you know that his existence would be known to all people and by all means of substantiation -- or is this just more speculation?
purpledawn writes:
If a God is DETERMINED not to allow his existence to be known to those without faith, then this God is concealing his existence from those without faith. Although we can't know the intent behind the concealment, we could speculate that the intent is to generate faith, since one would need faith to see the evidence.
You're right about the part that we can speculate on (the intent), but you've yet to provide (or speculate) on any reason why God would be determined not to allow his existence to be known to those without faith.
purpledawn writes:
Whether it is tradition or from the Bible, there are religious teachings that God conceals Himself and desires that we seek Him with all our heart and soul.
I've read nothing in the Christian Scriptures which indicate that God is conceiling himself so that he might generate a desire in others to seek him out.
Nothing.
Could you point these passages out to me please?
In regards to tradition, could you quote me the people who held this position?
Again, we've gone back and forth on this many times -- and yet you've not quoted one source to back up this tradition.
Not one source.
purpledawn writes:
If a God is DETERMINED not to allow evidence of his existence to be known to anyone today, then he won't. IMO, the lack of scientifically substantiated evidence of his existence would support this.
Again, this is your opinion -- which is fine.
But why do you think that the lack of scientifically substantiated evidence of his existence would support the idea that God is determined not to allow evidence of his existence to be known to anyone today?
Is it because God will not light your candle?
Note: purpledawn, I apologize if I sound mean-spirited or sarcastic. It's just that we've been over this a lot in that thread. I explained many things in detail. You've presented your side as well -- although your response was not very understandable in my opinion.
I don't know what else to say. We seem to be talking past each other.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-07-2005 01:45 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by purpledawn, posted 10-07-2005 10:33 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by purpledawn, posted 10-07-2005 5:43 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 39 of 171 (249887)
10-07-2005 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-07-2005 1:36 PM


Re: Showing Determination
quote:
Note: purpledawn, I apologize if I sound mean-spirited or sarcastic. It's just that we've been over this a lot in that thread. I explained many things in detail. You've presented your side as well -- although your response was not very understandable in my opinion.
That's why my post was to DominionSeraph and not you.
I enjoy discussing and am open to learning. I feel in this thread and the first you seem more intent on battle.
quote:
purpledawn writes:
IMO, if a God is DETERMINED to allow his existence to be known to all humans today, then his existence would be known to all people and by all means of substantiation.
I'm glad you added the part about this being your opinion.
Ok...so..um...how do you know that his existence would be known to all people and by all means of substantiation -- or is this just more speculation?
You ask how I know. I gave an opinion, I don't know anything concerning this for fact, that's why the IMO. This whole thread is nothing more than our opinions and speculations.
We aren't discussing whether God exists or not, but supposedly whether he conceals himself from humans.
Since this is in the Faith and Belief forum, I assumed that the existence of God was a given for this thread. Was I wrong?
So IMO a God who is DETERMINED to make himself known to all people would not overlook all means necessary to make sure his existence is known.
In Message 37 I gave three scenerios I feel are possible.
purpledawn writes:
If a God is DETERMINED not to allow his existence to be known to those without faith, then this God is concealing his existence from those without faith. Although we can't know the intent behind the concealment, we could speculate that the intent is to generate faith, since one would need faith to see the evidence.
quote:
but you've yet to provide (or speculate) on any reason why God would be determined not to allow his existence to be known to those without faith.
This is why I don't feel that you truly read my posts without looking for a battle. I gave you a possible WHY. (we could speculate that the intent is to generate faith, since one would need faith to see the evidence). Try explaining why you think it is an unreasonable speculation.
quote:
I've read nothing in the Christian Scriptures which indicate that God is conceiling himself so that he might generate a desire in others to seek him out.
I didn't say the scripture supported it. I said there are religious teachings. IMO, teachings can be gleaned from the Bible without the Bible actually supporting the teaching.
quote:
Could you point these passages out to me please?
In regards to tradition, could you quote me the people who held this position?
I've got over 40 years of Christianity under my belt. I didn't really keep notes on the sermons or all the books I've read.
But there are scriptures that allude to God concealing himself.
Isaiah 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
From the internet we have:
Jewish
Chassidut reveals to us the drama of God’s creation of the universe. It is like a game of hide-and-seek. In this Divinely inspired game, God conceals Himself, but He desires that we seek Him. He promises us that if we seek Him with all our heart and soul, we will ultimately find Him.
A quote by Blaise Pascal used by Rev. Dr. Paul Weston in a sermon at St. Mary's Church, Cambridge.
'Faith' therefore has to do with personal encounter rather than with theoretical engagement. In fact, as Blaise Pascal the 17th century French philosopher put it, the search for 'faith' which assumes that it will be born out of an examination of religious 'theory' is likely to 'miss' God altogether. 'God conceals himself from those who examine him,' he wrote, 'but reveals himself to those who search for him.'
So there is theological evidence that God conceals himself. The purpose can only be speculated.
Now whether the evangelists or apologist who have preached that God conceals himself to generate faith are Biblically supported, I don't know. Didn't think about it at the time. But crashfrog is right in that those teachings are out there.
If you feel that those teachings are incorrect then correct their error reasonably.
quote:
purpledawn writes:
If a God is DETERMINED not to allow evidence of his existence to be known to anyone today, then he won't. IMO, the lack of scientifically substantiated evidence of his existence would support this.
But why do you think that the lack of scientifically substantiated evidence of his existence would support the idea that God is determined not to allow evidence of his existence to be known to anyone today?
Good grief! Read what I wrote.
If a God is determined not to allow proof of his existence, but we had scientifically stubstantiated evidence, then obviously the God wasn't doing very good at concealing himself. So lack of evidence would be one support for this scenerio, IMO.
You need to clarify your position and what you want out of this thread.
Are you trying to disprove the teaching that God conceals scientific evidence of himself from humans today to generate faith?
Are you trying to say that no one teaches that scenerio?
Are you trying to say that there is ample evidence today, scientific or otherwise, of God's existence?
Or are you saying that God conceals himself from everyone for no reason at all?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-07-2005 1:36 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-08-2005 3:18 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 40 of 171 (249977)
10-08-2005 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by purpledawn
10-07-2005 5:43 PM


Re: Showing Determination
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Note: purpledawn, I apologize if I sound mean-spirited or sarcastic. It's just that we've been over this a lot in that thread. I explained many things in detail. You've presented your side as well -- although your response was not very understandable in my opinion.
purpledawn writes:
That's why my post was to DominionSeraph and not you.
Yes, but you were talking about me -- that's why I'm responding to you and not DominionSeraph.
purpledawn writes:
I enjoy discussing and am open to learning. I feel in this thread and the first you seem more intent on battle.
It is a battle purpledawn. If someone's making claims about God, and I sincerely believe those claims are severely wrong, then I feel a duty to respond in the appropriate measure.
I think that people making the claim that God is determined to hide himself in order to generate faith is a rather dangerous claim to make.
The theological implications behind it basically render God as being not much different from a card shark that forces you to play a game with him -- without telling you the rules how to play (won't even let you see your own hand for that matter) -- and then mercilessly snuffs out your miserable soul because you lost the game against him.
~yay!~
It's a fairly cruel image of God being presented when someone claims that he is determined to hide himself in order to generate faith.
Think about it.
purpledawn writes:
IMO, if a God is DETERMINED to allow his existence to be known to all humans today, then his existence would be known to all people and by all means of substantiation.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
I'm glad you added the part about this being your opinion.
Ok...so..um...how do you know that his existence would be known to all people and by all means of substantiation -- or is this just more speculation?
purpledawn writes:
You ask how I know. I gave an opinion, I don't know anything concerning this for fact, that's why the IMO. This whole thread is nothing more than our opinions and speculations.
Exactly. Just like I'm giving my opinion on the matter.
purpledawn writes:
We aren't discussing whether God exists or not...
True. For the sake of this discussion, we are assuming that some God (or gods) exist.
purpledawn writes:
...but supposedly whether he conceals himself from humans.
Again true -- but this also leads into the question of whether God is really hiding at all -- or whether we simply can't see him -- or whether some people can see him and some cannot -- or the question of whether all should be able to see him.
purpledawn writes:
Since this is in the Faith and Belief forum, I assumed that the existence of God was a given for this thread. Was I wrong?
Nope.
I'm just making sure that everyone who reads this thread realizes that the views you've expressed are your opinions -- just like the views I've expressed are my opinions.
That's all.
purpledawn writes:
So IMO a God who is DETERMINED to make himself known to all people would not overlook all means necessary to make sure his existence is known.
In Message 37 I gave three scenerios I feel are possible.
purpledawn writes writes:
If a God is DETERMINED not to allow his existence to be known to those without faith, then this God is concealing his existence from those without faith. Although we can't know the intent behind the concealment, we could speculate that the intent is to generate faith, since one would need faith to see the evidence.
Look. The point that I'm trying to get across is that, according to the Scriptures, there was a time when God appeared quite blatently in a pillar of fire and a cloud -- and actually led the Israelites in a way that was so visible that no one who "saw" it could deny that God was there.
Even still, many didn't believe in him. Raw evidence of God's existence does not guarantee belief in him. If this is so, then I see no reason why he would hide in order to generate faith -- since that would simply make belief in him that much harder.
Do you understand what I'm saying?
If raw evidence of his existence does not guarantee belief in him, then why on earth would he, an apparently all-loving God, chose to make things all the more difficult by hiding from those he loves?
I'm sorry. It just doesn't make any sense to me. And, as I've tried to point out several times, I don't think that those who do hold this view have really thought it through well enough.
In fact, I'm quite sure that this position is more like am intellectual brain-fart that many are probably going to regret holding when they come face to face with their maker -- in my opinion of course.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
...but you've yet to provide (or speculate) on any reason why God would be determined not to allow his existence to be known to those without faith.
purpledawn writes:
This is why I don't feel that you truly read my posts without looking for a battle. I gave you a possible WHY. (we could speculate that the intent is to generate faith, since one would need faith to see the evidence). Try explaining why you think it is an unreasonable speculation.
I have read your posts purpledawn. See the card shark analogy above.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
I've read nothing in the Christian Scriptures which indicate that God is conceiling himself so that he might generate a desire in others to seek him out.
purpledawn writes:
I didn't say the scripture supported it. I said there are religious teachings. IMO, teachings can be gleaned from the Bible without the Bible actually supporting the teaching.
Well, to be clear, there are definitely passages which talk about God hiding. But, for the record, I've seen nothing about him hiding himself so that he might generate a desire in others to seek him out.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Could you point these passages out to me please?
In regards to tradition, could you quote me the people who held this position?
purpledawn writes:
I've got over 40 years of Christianity under my belt.
And you're still waiting for God to light a candle for you?
purpledawn writes:
I didn't really keep notes on the sermons or all the books I've read.
Apparently not, since...well...y'know...the candle...and Dick Clark and all that...
purpledawn writes:
But there are scriptures that allude to God concealing himself.
Whoa, whoa, whoa...
I've never said that God doesn't hide himself. I've even suggested some reasons, in my opinion, why God might really hide.
One of these reasons, if I recall correctly, was the possibility of God destroying men by his presence -- and that he might hide in order to protect us from his own awesome presence.
Another of those reasons, in my opinion, is that God hides his face when people sin -- or that God simply cannot look upon the face of sin.
Yet, in another area, I think that God might hide his intentions so that perverse evil people do not distort the knowedge he has to offer about himself or his will -- again, in my opinion.
Bible writes:
Isaiah 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
Well..how about we look for passages which actually discuss why God might himself (or his intentions for that matter).
For example, there's this:
NIV writes:
Then the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him."
Why would God want to hide this information from Abraham?
Another passage of Scripture says the following:
NIV writes:
On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?' And I will certainly hide my face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.
Here's another one:
NIV writes:
"I will hide my face from them," he said,
"and see what their end will be;
for they are a perverse generation,
children who are unfaithful.
They made me jealous by what is no god
and angered me with their worthless idols.
I will make them envious by those who are not a people;
I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding.
For a fire has been kindled by my wrath,
one that burns to the realm of death below.
It will devour the earth and its harvests
and set afire the foundations of the mountains.
Job 13:24 asks, "Why do you hide your face and consider me your enemy?"
Psalm 10:1 asks, "Why, O LORD, do you stand far off? Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble?"
Another passage says:
NIV writes:
How great is your goodness,
which you have stored up for those who fear you,
which you bestow in the sight of men
on those who take refuge in you.
In the shelter of your presence you hide them
from the intrigues of men;
in your dwelling you keep them safe
from accusing tongues.
Praise be to the LORD,
for he showed his wonderful love to me
when I was in a besieged city.
Psalm 44:24 asks. "Why do you hide your face and forget our misery and oppression?"
Psalm 104:29 goes so far as to state, "When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust."
I could also point to Psalm 88:14, Psalm 89:46, Psalm 102:2, Psalm 102:2, Psalm 143:7, or even Micah 3:4 which states, "Then they will cry out to the LORD, but he will not answer them. At that time he will hide his face from them because of the evil they have done."
Look, I've just looked through the passage which talk about God hiding. First of all, I think they're using the idea of God hiding as a metaphor for humanity being in big trouble. Second of all, not once does it mention the idea of God hiding so as to generate a desire in others to seek him out.
purpledawn writes:
From the internet we have:
Jewish
Chassidut reveals to us the drama of God’s creation of the universe. It is like a game of hide-and-seek. In this Divinely inspired game, God conceals Himself, but He desires that we seek Him. He promises us that if we seek Him with all our heart and soul, we will ultimately find Him.
Game of cards anyone?
Bwa haaa haaa haaaa haaaaaaaaah!
purpledawn writes:
A quote by Blaise Pascal used by Rev. Dr. Paul Weston in a sermon at St. Mary's Church, Cambridge.
'Faith' therefore has to do with personal encounter rather than with theoretical engagement. In fact, as Blaise Pascal the 17th century French philosopher put it, the search for 'faith' which assumes that it will be born out of an examination of religious 'theory' is likely to 'miss' God altogether. 'God conceals himself from those who examine him,' he wrote, 'but reveals himself to those who search for him.'
Was St. Mary's church a Catholic church?
Um....Pascal wasn't too keen on organized religion, being a fore-runner to deism and all. He was specifically protesting the works of Catholic Scholastics, such as the writings of St. Aquinas if I recall correctly. Since he did reject some premises of the Christian concept of divine revelation, of course he's going to say something like this.
purpledawn writes:
So there is theological evidence that God conceals himself.
Agreed. I never said he didn't
purpledawn writes:
The purpose can only be speculated.
No. If the Scriptures themselves are fair game for determining the purpose for God hiding, then Chassidut and Pascal are fairly well blowing chunks.
purpledawn writes:
Now whether the evangelists or apologist who have preached that God conceals himself to generate faith are Biblically supported, I don't know.
Basd on the passages I've read, I don't think it is.
purpledawn writes:
Didn't think about it at the time.
That's ok. I don't think Chassidut or Pascal thought about it too hard either -- at least, not based on their own Scriptures anyway.
purpledawn writes:
But crashfrog is right in that those teachings are out there.
Ok, fair enough -- the idea is out there (waaaayyy out there in my opinion). But the idea is out there.
purplerain writes:
If you feel that those teachings are incorrect then correct their error reasonably.
How do you suggest I do that? Isn't this just all speculation?
Prince writes:
If a God is DETERMINED not to allow evidence of his existence to be known to anyone today, then he won't. IMO, the lack of scientifically substantiated evidence of his existence would support this.
Apparently the Scriptures are not high on your reading list.
I would Die 4 U writes:
But why do you think that the lack of scientifically substantiated evidence of his existence would support the idea that God is determined not to allow evidence of his existence to be known to anyone today?
purpledawn writes:
Good grief! Read what I wrote.
I have read what you wrote.
You're the one claiming to have done extensive religious studies for 40 years -- and you've never ever come across these passages of Scripture which actually really do talk about the reasons why God hides?
purpledawn writes:
If a God is determined not to allow proof of his existence, but we had scientifically stubstantiated evidence, then obviously the God wasn't doing very good at concealing himself. So lack of evidence would be one support for this scenerio, IMO.
And yet, with sweeping elegence, you totally ignored what the Scriptures themselves have to say about why God hides.
*sigh*
purpledawn writes:
You need to clarify your position and what you want out of this thread.
No. I need to stop wasting my time trying to explain this to you.
Enjoy your candle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by purpledawn, posted 10-07-2005 5:43 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by purpledawn, posted 10-08-2005 6:10 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 41 of 171 (249990)
10-08-2005 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-08-2005 3:18 AM


Purple Candle
quote:
I need to stop wasting my time trying to explain this to you.
Excellent idea!
quote:
Enjoy your candle.
I will enjoy my beautiful purple candle that has never been lit.
Take Care

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-08-2005 3:18 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-08-2005 11:28 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 42 of 171 (250058)
10-08-2005 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by purpledawn
10-08-2005 6:10 AM


Re: Purple Candle
purpledawn writes:
Excellent idea!
pft-
Yeah sure -- and please continue to ignore every scrap of Scriptural reasons why God hides while you're at it.
purpledawn writes:
I will enjoy my beautiful purple candle that has never been lit.
Yeah...the beautiful purple candle that will never ever spontaniously light for you.
Never.
To be fair I have to ask if you are suffering any physical disabilities that prevent you from actually lighting the candle yourself?
If so, has a friend ever offered to light the candle for you?
If I were there I'd do it for you.
See, God will never do something for you that you can accomplish on your own -- especially if you've been given the ability by God himself to accomplish it on your own.
And oftentimes he does send people our way to accomplish the prayers that we have petitioned to him.
I'm fairly sure that you've heard some variation of this story before, but her goes nothing....
God's Help writes:
There once was a flood and everyone had reached safety except for one man.
He climbed to the top of his house with the water lapping at his feet.
A helicopter flew over his head and hung down a rope for him to climb, but the man was deeply religious and said, "It's alright! The Lord will save me!"
So the helicopter flew away. The water continued to rise and a boat came to him but, once again, the man shouted, "No! Go AWAY! the Lord will come and save me!" and, once again, the boat sped off.
The water was getting dangerously deep by now so the helicopter came back and, on cue, the man repeated, "I don't need saving! My Lord will come"
Reluctantly, the helicopter left.
The rain continued to pour, the water continued to rise and the man drowned.
At the gates of heaven, the man met St. Peter. Confused, he asked, "Peter, I have lived the life of a faithful man - why did my Lord not rescue me?"
St. Peter replied, "For pity sake! He sent you two helicopters and a boat!"
You sitting there and asking God to miraculously light a candle for you is foolish in light of the very real possibility that you are fully capable of lighting it on your own.
The day that you actually attempt to someway light the candle so that you can give praise to the God who has given you the desire to do so is the day that you will finally understand that God's Spirit has moved you to do so.
The Scriptures do not say, "God helps those who help themselves." But they do say, "Draw close to me and I will draw close to you." I don't think there's much difference between these two statements in my opinion.
purpledawn writes:
Take Care
And may God bless you in your search purpledawn.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by purpledawn, posted 10-08-2005 6:10 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by purpledawn, posted 10-09-2005 8:46 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 43 of 171 (250239)
10-09-2005 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-08-2005 11:28 AM


Re: Purple Candle
We are so far out of sync it is becoming laughable.
The story you shared is actually one of my favorites and I use it quite often with Christians who are turning away help that is right in front of them to wait for a more spectacular solution they want from God.
This story is about salvation (being saved from an ordeal) and my candle is about confirmation.
Lighting my own candle does not confirm God's existence.
The Bible shows that God has given confirmation specific to what was requested. Gideon made a specific request for cofirmation and God confirmed as requested. (Judges 6:36-40)
So I do not consider my request to be unreasonable if God wants us to know of his existence without a doubt.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-08-2005 11:28 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-09-2005 11:03 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 44 of 171 (250249)
10-09-2005 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by purpledawn
10-09-2005 8:46 AM


Re: Purple Candle
purpledawn writes:
We are so far out of sync it is becoming laughable.
I think we're actually starting to understand each other better.
purpledawn writes:
The story you shared is actually one of my favorites and I use it quite often with Christians who are turning away help that is right in front of them to wait for a more spectacular solution they want from God.
And you don't think your request for confirmation is a more spectacular solution from God?
purpledawn writes:
This story is about salvation (being saved from an ordeal) and my candle is about confirmation.
Confirmation is salvation.
purpledawn writes:
Lighting my own candle does not confirm God's existence.
It does if you believe it does. The confirmation is in your heart and you don't need to prove anything to anyone.
I thought after 40 years of Christianity under your belt you would understand these elementary basics of the faith.
purpledawn writes:
The Bible shows that God has given confirmation specific to what was requested. Gideon made a specific request for cofirmation and God confirmed as requested. (Judges 6:36-40)
Yes, I know the story. Unfortuntately I think your request is not likened to Gideon's request. In my opinion it is actually more akin to the adversary's requests for Christ to turn stones into bread and later throw himself from the highest place in order to demonstrate that God would save him.
Would you like me to explain why I think your request is more similar to the adversary's request than Gideon's request?
purpledawn writes:
So I do not consider my request to be unreasonable if God wants us to know of his existence without a doubt.
If I'm understanding the Scriptures properly, apparently God might consider your request to be unreasonable.
Let me ask you a simple question: Do you honestly believe your beautiful purple candle will light spontaniously by God's will?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by purpledawn, posted 10-09-2005 8:46 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by purpledawn, posted 10-09-2005 2:50 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 45 of 171 (250287)
10-09-2005 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-09-2005 11:03 AM


Re: The Purple Candle
quote:
And you don't think your request for confirmation is a more spectacular solution from God?
No.
Since the Christian God is supposedly capable of parting the red sea, making wet wood burn, and directing the dew; a simple candle flame is a piece of cake. Since religions are unable to provide consistent information, the candle is the most direct route for concrete varification of his existence.
quote:
Confirmation is salvation.
Confirmation (something that proves the truth or validity of) is not salvation (rescue).
quote:
I thought after 40 years of Christianity under your belt you would understand these elementary basics of the faith.
I understand the basics of the "faith" very well. I also understand dogma and tradition and how they developed. I am not a fan of dogma and tradition.
quote:
Unfortuntately I think your request is not likened to Gideon's request. In my opinion it is actually more akin to the adversary's requests for Christ to turn stones into bread and later throw himself from the highest place in order to demonstrate that God would save him.
This story deals with the temptation (testing) of Jesus. He didn't stop the fast by eating, he wasn't bought off, and he didn't throw himself off a building since he knew Satan was quoting lines from a song. This story wasn't about Satan trying to confirm that God existed or that Jesus was the son of God. Being Satan, he already knew.
quote:
If I'm understanding the Scriptures properly, apparently God might consider your request to be unreasonable.
What scriptures lead you to believe that?
quote:
Do you honestly believe your beautiful purple candle will light spontaniously by God's will?
Yes, if the Christian God exists, has the powers that are attributed to him and wants people to know that he exists.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-09-2005 11:03 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-09-2005 4:59 PM purpledawn has replied

  
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