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Author Topic:   Atheism is a belief (Why Atheists don't believe part 2)
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 74 of 302 (315250)
05-26-2006 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by iano
05-26-2006 6:58 AM


Re: no objective redness concept available
If the original argument was that because objective observation cannot reveal the true nature of reality that therefore belief in God in the absence of objective evidence is as valid as disbelief in God because of the absence of objective evidence, then it should be noted that this is simply arguing that all beliefs are equally valid. This leads inevitably to the conclusion that not only is theism as valid as atheism, but that Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism and so forth are all as equally valid as Christianity.
There are other inevitable conclusions, of course. For example, it also leads to the conclusion that the beliefs of perpetual motion machine advocates and other mad hatters are as valid as those who accept the established laws of physics. Even more ridiculously, it leads to the conclusion that the beliefs of someone who thinks he can fly off a ten story building are as valid as those who believe otherwise, since the former, if he acts on his beliefs, will soon be dead.
The bottom line is that whether or not reality is real, all evidence tells us that the evidence from the real world can only be ignored at one's peril. Even if reality is an illusion, the illusion that you die when you jump off a ten story building is a very convincing one.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by iano, posted 05-26-2006 6:58 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by iano, posted 05-26-2006 9:12 AM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 82 of 302 (315293)
05-26-2006 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by iano
05-26-2006 9:12 AM


Re: no objective redness concept available
I think the comet and color discussions are fairly peripheral to the topic, but I understand what you say later on about others sharing your observations of God. Now let me see if I can tie it into the topic.
Atheists base their lack of belief in God upon the absence of objective evidence for God. You respond that their inability to make observations of God in no way bears upon his reality because there are many others who do not share this inability and who do observe God, and who share and confirm their observations with others, thereby satisfying the replicability requirement associated with establishing something objectively.
But as much as you might like to believe you're making objective observations, you're not, for a host of reasons.
You're not using any of the five senses, either by direct observation or indirectly through instrumentation, to make your observations, so your observations are based upon internal subjective feelings.
The natural progression of objective study is toward improved understanding of the phenomenon, something that certainly cannot be said about God.
What you call verifying observations is actually sharing of religious feelings. That this is subjective is evidenced by the wide variety of organized religions, and of personal beliefs of members of those religions, and of personal religious beliefs of persons outside organized religions. Christians like yourself can find other Christians like Faith who share your religious feelings and beliefs, but as you've discovered it is also easy to find Christians who do not, such as Jar. And you'd have particular difficulty reaching any agreement about your observations of God with Hindus or Buddhists.
The difference between your belief in God and the atheist's belief that there is no God is that the atheist's observation about the lack of any meaningful consensus about God, and about the lack of objective observational evidence of God, cannot be disputed. The objective evidence for God is about the same as the objective evidence for entities like pink dragons, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness monster.
And there's nothing wrong with that. That there is no objective evidence for God is not proof that there is no God. As RiverRat observed at the outset, you can't prove there is no God, which agrees with what scientists have known from very early on in the development of science, that you can't prove a negative. I can't prove there's no Loch Ness monster, I can't prove there's no Bigfoot, and I can't prove there's no God. But there's no objective evidence for God, and so belief in God is a matter of faith, not of evidence.
What RiverRat was actually trying to say in his OP was that believing there is no God is equally a matter of faith. Well, okay, but if you want to argue that way, then believing there is no Loch Ness monster is also a matter of faith. This is just another way of saying that everything is a matter of faith, and by that argument, as I pointed out in my previous message, all beliefs are equally valid, which is obviously not true.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by iano, posted 05-26-2006 9:12 AM iano has not replied

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