When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?

Greetings, Lammy! I pulled this dusty gem out of the archives rather than starting a new topic on what is essentially your question. We all have discussed the Bible, the truth vs the apologetic marketing, redactors, false prophets (and false profiteers), and our own interpretations regarding such hypothetical events. I will share my current perspective in light of the global pandemic, challenging times regarding possible financial depression and social unrest globally, which I now think will be likely, and some personal observations that I have made tying all of the marketing hype, secular news hype, prophecies known and unknown, interpreted by carny barking apologists or by sober-minded Popes. Let's start with something I read about a new book...an autobiography from the last Pope which I read about recently. Former pope Benedict complains of attempts to 'silence' him
Regarding the whole vilification of gays and homosexuality, I personally see the real focus among Christian conservatives and moderates to be regarding any fleshy form of copulation between any two genders. The traditionalists still take a stand on the man and wife limitation of allowable sexual expression, and I can only comment that nobody in or out of any church has a right to judge the behaviors of another unless it harms others. Rest assured that my only encouragement for you and your significant other is to love deeply, love holistically and completely, and love without partiality. But enough about gays, which I only mentioned in passing due to Ratzingers comment and due to the fact that you are gay.A more troubling comment that I found mentioned by Ratzinger is the fear of a globalist humanist "one world religion".Update Your Browser | FacebookIf you are still interested after 16 years, we can discuss some of the current news articles, speculations, books written regarding Last Days Prophecies (as interpreted through apologists) ...

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Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, well-known Vatican prelate and head of the Congregation on the Doctrine of the Faith, gives a full-length interview to secular journalist Peter Seewald, on a host of controversial and difficult issues facing Catholicism and Christianity at the end of the millennium. Similar to his best-selling book interview in 1985, The Ratzinger Report, he responds with candor and insight, giving answers that are often surprising and always thought-provoking on a series of wide-ranging topics regarding the present and future state of Christianity.
In office from 2005-13, Benedict has frequently been criticized for his attitudes to Islam or to social questions and is accused of attempting to undermine the modernization drive of his successor Pope Francis.

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There is lots more where that came from.

You won't be yawning once you meet the God you don't claim to need. You may be trying to blame the apologists for lying to the people about the character of God and trying to sell the idea that we need Him, but after examining your argument, factoring in your perceived character (you try to do good, but are stuck in your conclusions arrived at 60 years ago) and weighing in my own biases and fantasies, I conclude that God exists, He is knowable to a degree but is far more complex than we imagine Him to be, and that the following statement that you once made is WRONG. So says the late Stephen Hawking. He claimed to imagine a universe where God is unnecessary. It appears that he himself is now unnecessary.But lets examine some of the apologetic claims of the signs pointing towards the Last Days. If you later wish to charge the apologists with palming the pea and misdirecting attention, you can start with me. I will tell you in advance, however, that I am addressing your claim that there is no need to factor in any God to understand reality.The top minds in science and communication and medicine agree with you. One such man is Jamie Wheal of the Flow Genome Project. He uses lots of big words and concepts which I have to slow down and think about, but essentially I can encapsulate his overall philosophies here:

He dismisses the supernatural, as you do.
the Altered States of Consciousness: There’s Nothing Supernatural About It

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I believe that he and others, brilliant people all, have it wrong.

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Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

Tangle! That's beneath even you! I can't expect you to trust my experiences and a critical thinker would have every right (indeed a responsibility) to test my claims. I will say, in my defense, that I am willing to examine other belief systems than my own. The reason that I do so is primarily to understand other approaches to thinking about the future of the human species and what I anticipate the challenges to be.In addition, the reason that I say that the brilliant people have it all wrong has a lot to do with my research into how many of them think and of how it so neatly goes against the mindset of the believers whom I know and whom I know of, online. Why do I side with the believers when my worldview is so illogical and unreasonable?Why do I trust what I have been taught?As you might ask, why am I so predisposed to imagining a bleak future full of war, conflict, and death?Finally, why do I need God? We shall examine these questions and others, but first I want to lay out my plan of discussion. Stay tuned.

Evidence about what? Let's be specific. Evidence that God exists? For some reason, the original manufacturer left this one blank. Now, what reason *could* that be?Tangle asks why God can't simply have created us already loving each other perfectly, loving Him and no sickness, diseases, wars, tragedies, sorta like the whole concept of Heaven is. ringo likely would agree. For them, God does not personally exist for many of the reasons given. Then you come along...(a believer, mind you) and essentially preach the message to throw God away and that the evidence shows Him to be unnecessary. Your argument basically says that humans are charged to *do* all of the work to allow for the continuation and growth of the human species. To your credit, you defend and support your argument by pointing to the evidence. But let me lay out the basic case and scenario that most apologists agree on, (silly though it may sound to the uninitiated) contrast it with a couple of talks I listened to from some of the thinkers that influence the big corporations and the US Military, and arrive at my own conclusion, which you and others likely will challenge.

Yes, we know that you believe this. Perhaps it is accurate to say that the con is in even attempting to establish evidence. Lack of objective evidence for the existence of God or other supernatural phenomena is as far as I know never going to happen. I disagree. While I can't provide any objective evidence, I have had experiences and I am not lying.You are of course free to claim that apologetics and popular Biblical interpretations of Jesus returning, the world trying its best yet failing to achieve the necessary standard, and the rise of a one-world global government with humanist ideals devoid of any official belief in the God Whom created us and has a purpose for us as vague, nonsensical, and above all else your claim that its sole purpose is to sell (slang) religion for profit (as opposed to prophet ).Its what you do and have done at EvC for nearly 20 years. I'm not saying that I absolutely 100% know anything that will happen in the future. I am saying that I believe that these scenarios are likely to occur. In addition, I am well aware that you have read the Bible, so I won't waste much time attempting to do anything other than to show the scriptures and writings that led the apologists to draw their conclusions.
The apologist which i will choose to use as an example for this discussion is Amir Tsarfati. I'm not saying that I trust this man any more than any other teacher, apologist, Pastor, or even salesman (such as you are), and I fully expect you to examine his ministry. (Yes, he too sells books.) Despite that fact, I don't believe that it is the main reason that he has a ministry. You are far too skeptical when you label every single apologist as a carny sideshow.I have one of his books on Audible and have listened to it a couple of times.In addition, I read a lot of unproven trash on the internet. I think that I am intuitive enough to dismiss most of it, but every once in a while I read something and a lightbulb turns on in my head. Those I will share here.
‘High likelihood of human civilization coming to end’ by 2050, report finds
The paper, produced by the Melbourne-based think tank the Breakthrough National Centre for Climate Restoration, is presented by the former chief of the Australian Defence Forces and retired Royal Australian Navy Admiral Chris Barrie.The global warming crowd also sees a possible and quite likely crisis.You say that you don't trust the apologists, right? Well, I don't trust the Chinese Communist Party, the secular European Union, Bill Gates, and to be honest, people who are actively opposed to God and Jesus even if He existed. You get a pass merely by claiming to be a believer, but I will continually challenge you (and likely misrepresent your position) time and time again as long as we both hang out at this website.

Ok, lets discuss it. First off, why do you lump all apologists in the same liar camp? To accuse all of anyone of being dishonest is just plain unrealistic.(That is unless you are attempting to push the argument that we *know* the evidence yet choose to ignore it, in which case I can say the same thing about you.)So let's take my latest favorite apologist.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

You are damn right! A one-world religion would be a watered-down counterfeit to the truth. Most of this bunch at EvC likely would fall for that humanist crap also. Before we go there, let me share with you the type of thinking that likely will embrace such a humanist world religion. Most of you will support it--its evidence-based, scientific and transpersonal, and tangle will see it as a definite step up from the ancient mythos.
Daniel Schmachtenberger’s talk at Emergence

Most of the time I think you are simply wrong. I won't get sucked into playing a game of "evidence" when interpreting Bible meanings. You already know how to frame issues, but I simply disagree with many of your conclusions, since they are usually unlike anything I hear from other believers. The fact that you dismiss the conclusions of the apologists so readily shows me that you frame the Bible according to how you see it, though you will claim that you are simply reporting what it says and have no agenda, (unlike the apologists). Correct me if I'm wrong, but essentially what you are asking me to do is support the belief and assertions of the people whom I post. (or challenge them, one or the other) but that's not my job. I post what feels right to me. Sometimes I get it wrong, but I would argue that it is essentially what I believe to be happening. Is there any evidence? All we basically have is what you claim all along---that we will get the world that we want. There are some of us (by us I mean Americans) who would go to war rather than give up their materialistic advantage. There are others, such as Pelosi and McConnell from what I hear, that would welcome globalism as long as they benefit from it. My intuition tells me that the Chinese Communist Party is a potential rival to American Dominance. I won't go so far as to claim that they initiated COVID-19, but I do believe that there are powers and interests globally that oppose the idea of American Nationalism and making our country great again since the way that we have historically done it is by exploiting others.I believe that we are in the early stages of a global conflict of ideologies. Of course. Who else can address it? My beef with the idea of a one-world government (or pact) and a kinder gentler religion (or humanist belief) is that it is wrong to throw God away and have a consensus. If God wants to let everyone in the club (or pay the latter laborers the same as the early birds) that's on Him and not us. I am not a socialist. My problem, at least of my flesh, is wanting to remain special, favored, and set apart. I am not ready to sacrifice my position for the least of these, though I know that Jesus wants me to be less selfish and insecure.

For one thing, I don't see every apologist as a used car salesman attempting to dump an easily sold product on an unwary buyer. We actually believe that we have met God. We don't need rigorous scientific evidence to verify that its God and not a bad burrito.To your credit, you have taught me some good wisdom.

I may question what it is that I feel and perceive but I dont deny Christs living presence by challenging it. We are to test the spirits, but we are not to question our proclaimed Faith and acceptance of God. We may well question any and all humans, however. Let God be true and every man a liar. God either exists or He doesnt. You seem to place a low priority on the idea of Communion with Him, choosing instead to run out the door and be a secular humanist do-gooder while stubbornly clinging to your badge as a member of the club.
But lets hear from the other side. Thus the thinking is not black and white in their view and does not depend on a Source other than the human collective and our interpretation and application of the content. LOL. How is it that Satan would be more likely than God? If I am seeking the truth, and if Jesus proclaimed Himself to be the truth and John describes Him as the living word, how can satan even get in line ahead of our beloved Creator of all seen and unseen? I would worry more about those of you who see Jesus as a myth. Satan has your number on speed dial. First off, nobody knows the day or the hour, but we can discern the seasons we are in. You claim that we need to elect the right leaders or we will get the world that we want. Which sounds about right, though the issue is far more complex than simply Left=good, Right=Bad. (or visa versa.) It is good and bad in the Left. It is good and bad in The Right. There is good and bad in the CCCP. And there is good and bad in the church. One thing I believe you got wrong in your theology, however, is that there is good and bad in God. God is represented to the Christian by the character of Jesus Christ. Satan had nothing in Jesus. So what if he wrecked the merchants slanging in the Temple? He alone had the authority to do that...just as you would have the authority to shoot someone in your Temple.

You would claim that the truth is found in evidence. I would challenge that and say that the truth is only found in humans and their inner motives and desires. Looking up old texts and claiming to know how the early believers think or how they arrived at their conclusions is a plot of the enemy, seeking to discredit the truth.

Im going to have to read that book. I read The Guns Of August by that same author.

*sigh*. yeah I can see it now. You would allow the Muslims to set up a booth, as well as the Hindus. You would allow atheists to have equal time with the Priest. Your Temple would be a Temple to an unknown god. Jesus knows some things that you don't.And if someone broke into your house down in Texas, you would refrain from using your gun? That much I can respect, but how would you stop them?Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

And what did the "Jesus character" as you so generically call God incarnate do that was so wrong? If someone was selling stuff in my house and I didn't know them or give them permission, they would be out the front door on their ear.Your whole fantasy that humans can behave better than Jesus has sketchy support at best. Was He not without sin? all have sinned and continue to sin. Jesus knew no sin.

Not at all. You can't flip flop on me and use the Bible against me while not allowing me to use it to support my apologetic precepts. You don't even believe that the characters exist outside of the book.My God created the very evidence that you use.And I'm leaving right now to go help my friend feed homeless guys and I'm taking spare change, so you can't say anything about me not doing what Jesus says to do either. But you will. I await the mouth that roared.