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Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
Percy
Member
Posts: 20753
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 504 of 682 (887692)
08-20-2021 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 500 by Phat
08-20-2021 10:42 AM


Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
Say you create a legion of robots that are capable of committing evil. When one of your robots commits murder, who's responsible, you or the robot?

Phat writes:

If God foreknew that Lucifer would choose the possibility of evil (go along with my made-up hypothesis) is God evil for allowing Lucifer to personify evil?

Did God have a choice in creating Lucifer? Did He have a choice in allowing Lucifer to embrace evil? If he had a choice, and presumably he did since he's the all-powerful God who can do anything, then what does choosing to allow evil say about God?

You keep asking what are in essence the same questions over and over again as if they haven't been answered already and as if this ground isn't already well trod.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by Phat, posted 08-20-2021 10:42 AM Phat has seen this message

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20753
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 539 of 682 (887901)
08-25-2021 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 526 by Phat
08-25-2021 2:19 AM


Re: Let us try a simpler analogy.
Phat writes:

  • And for the sake of argument I am not claiming to be right and you wrong, though I sometimes feel that you guys see me as wrong solely on the presumption that God(or a living Christ) IS in fact a human creation and that I and most other CCoI (Christian Culture Of Ignorance--a term jar and I once defined) are engaged in a collective fantasy.
  • We do believe that religious adherents are engaged in a collective fantasy, and you believe the exact same thing, with the sole exception of those who believe as you do.

  • When discussing GOD (Creator of all seen and unseen) hypothetically, your side maintains that such a Deity does in fact have full responsibility for everything that He creates.
  • We're just drawing inevitable conclusions from your characterization of God. He's all-knowing and all-seeing, therefore he knows when anything he might do would have evil consequences, so if he does it anyway then he must be evil.

    I would argue that while in a philosophical and moral sense this statement is true, we humans also have essentially been given a choice.

    If your God is all-knowing then there is no choice. And if God is not all-knowing then there can be choice. Pick one - you can't have it both ways.

    If not, how could there be any solution except unbelief and getting on with life in the "real world"? And for a believer, that simply cannot be.

    So you think believers are like the Red Queen who could believe as many as six impossible things before breakfast.

  • Hypothetically, this "War In Heaven" happened a long time ago...at least from an apologetic perspective. The whole Free Will paradox was settled by the angelic realm. Humans came along after that decision was settled. Thus...arguing in Lucifers defense is moot. Either there is in fact a spiritual war and human decision or the whole story and scenario is clearly made up. I believe the former and you believe the latter.
  • How can you fault us for thinking your religious beliefs are made up when you believe the same thing about all other religious beliefs?

    You seem to inhabit this odd religious world where nothing can ever be known for certain and so you're forced to choose one religion among many and then just hope it's the right one. Increasing the likelihood that people's religious choices are wrong is that they most often choose the religion they were raised in. That's all they can do since there's no hard evidence that would permit them to consider which religion's evidence is best.

    --Percy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 526 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 2:19 AM Phat has taken no action

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 20753
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 540 of 682 (887903)
    08-25-2021 1:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 527 by Phat
    08-25-2021 2:27 AM


    Re: Gods responsibility for everything and the judgement of such
    Phat writes:

    ringo writes:

    If you know something bad is going to happen and you do nothing to prevent it, you are evil. Period.

    So are you suggesting that God was responsible for Lucifer's decision to become autonomous?

    You're making this up. There's nothing in the Bible saying that Lucifer made a decision to have free will.

    If so, how else could future civilizations be given a choice if there was only one door through which to go?

    If future civilizations have a choice, how could God be all-knowing?

    And before you answer, I can almost hear one possible answer: "We have been given a choice. Our choice is to dismiss all such mythos as outdated thinking, march forward with our human-derived and originated science and evidence-based thinking, and make our own world in a responsible and myth-free way."

    You keep going over the exact same ground again and again. You know the answers, but instead of moving the discussion forward you reset to square zero and find yet another way to pose the same questions.

    And the only reason for us discussing these hypotheticals between religious and nonreligious thinking is that there are many many believers who will live in this world along with our children and the thinking processes and beliefs will continually clash.

    Of course Zeus believers will clash with Odin believers. But obviously one of them must be right. Right?

    Ultimately whether or not God and Jesus are reality or myth, the effect of such beliefs will impact the future.

    Those holding false beliefs will always have an impact. Right this very minute we have major problems with people who don't believe covid is real or that the vaccine is a government plot to sterilize or implant chips or that Trump won the election or that everyone who's not white should go back where they came from or that Sandy Hook was a hoax or that the liberals are running a pedophile sex ring out of a pizza house and on and on.

    The way to stop wallowing in false beliefs is to require evidence for what you believe and to say "I don't know" a lot more often.

    --Percy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 527 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 2:27 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 634 by Phat, posted 09-01-2021 1:39 PM Percy has seen this message

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 20753
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 541 of 682 (887904)
    08-25-2021 1:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 529 by Phat
    08-25-2021 2:41 AM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    Phat writes:

    Would it really matter whether God knew the outcome if, in fact, the individual had plenty of time to choose his path more wisely?

    Why do you keep asking contradictory questions? If God knew the outcome in advance then the individual could not have chosen it from free will. Whatever happened was preordained.

    --Percy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 529 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 2:41 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 546 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 3:17 PM Percy has replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 20753
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.2


    (2)
    Message 542 of 682 (887907)
    08-25-2021 1:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 530 by Phat
    08-25-2021 2:48 AM


    Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
    Phat writes:

    I think I will argue that in the hypothetical, at the point of the initial "war in heaven" and angelic rebellion, God would have had to have not known the outcome but rather simply had allowed the possibility.

    So for some things God is all-knowing and for other things he isn't?

    My argument may not be as definite concerning human destiny. The sides have been chosen before the first human was born. Thus, God's foreknowledge at this point in no way condemns the Deity as being evil.

    You're just running words together now while making no sense. Foreknowledge of evil prior to Adam is no different than foreknowledge of evil after Adam. If God is eternal, omniscient and all-knowing then God's foreknowledge is unchanging across all time. The question, "What did he know and when did he know it?" doesn't apply to God because He always knew all of it.

    In this sense, Jesus was the 1st Adam rather than the 2nd Adam. The only point that you could argue is that humans were limited (in a broad sense) to only two choices. And in that you have an argument.

    You're making things up again.

    --Percy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 530 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 2:48 AM Phat has seen this message

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 20753
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 557 of 682 (887934)
    08-26-2021 8:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 555 by Phat
    08-25-2021 9:24 PM


    Re: Gods responsibility for everything and the judgement of such
    Phat writes:

    It is a trust issue. You always seem eager to pin the bad stuff on God and ignore the presence of a fallen angel who in reality caused us to doubt and mistrust God and each other. Granted it is hypothetically more of a copout to blame satan, but putting the Creator of all seen and unseen on trial if even one of His precious little creations ends up damned seems weird to me. Satan was allowed to exist in order to test our hearts and souls. The temptation is akin to tempering us. Turning bnttle iron into solid steel.

    You may as well be arguing about hobbits, elves and ogres for all the sense it makes.

    --Percy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 555 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 9:24 PM Phat has seen this message

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 20753
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 567 of 682 (887945)
    08-26-2021 1:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 564 by dwise1
    08-26-2021 12:44 PM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    dwise1 writes:

    In 1961, life-long Unitarians did not receive the news of merging with Universalists well,...

    That's an understatement.

    ...since they viewed that as injecting superstition into their churches.

    And removing both spirituality (not the original intent, but the eventual result of too big a tent) and a firm Christian foundation.

    Disgusted, over time Unitarian members disengaged, leaving the Universalists in charge. While Unitarian churches remain, Unitarian philosophy is no longer broadly represented in the United States. Universalists view the merger as the best real estate deal they ever made (originating in the early 19th century and becoming widely popular, Unitarian churches occupied prime real estate on the central squares of many small towns).

    Bitter? Who, me?

    --Percy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 564 by dwise1, posted 08-26-2021 12:44 PM dwise1 has taken no action

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 20753
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 568 of 682 (887947)
    08-27-2021 9:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 546 by Phat
    08-25-2021 3:17 PM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    How could you not understand something so basic. If God has foreknowledge that you will choose a chihuahua at the pet store tomorrow, and then you instead choose a pekinese, then obviously God does not have foreknowledge.

    And if he has foreknowledge that ISIS will commit a suicide bomber attack at the Kabul airport that will kill 13 American troops and at least 45 Afghanis and he permits it to happen, then he is evil.

    It's a big problem that when you see arguments like the above then you are moved to write words that make no sense or that go down meaningless ratholes. You need to address arguments like these in a rational and straightforward matter rather than in ways that cause people to throw up their hands and exclaim, "Has Phat become cognitively challenged?"

    --Percy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 546 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 3:17 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 569 by Phat, posted 08-27-2021 12:12 PM Percy has replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 20753
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 595 of 682 (887981)
    08-28-2021 11:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 574 by Phat
    08-27-2021 4:26 PM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    Biblically, what do we know about Satan? Here are all the Bible verses that Faith Gateway says are about Satan:

    Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

    Isaiah 14:12 How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning! 
How you are cut down to the ground,
 You who weakened the nations!”

    Revelation 12:11 We also learn in the Bible that Satan is a dangerous enemy. He is a serpent who can bite us when we least expect it. He is a destroyer

    Ephesians 6:11...He has great power and intelligence, and a host of demons who assist him in his attacks against God’s people

    Hebrews 2:14 Since we, the children, are all creatures of flesh and blood, Jesus took on flesh and blood, so that by dying He could destroy the one who held power over death—the devil.

    Matthew 4:1 The Spirit then led Jesus into the desert to be tempted by the devil.

    Matthew 4:10 Jesus was tempted in every way, but in the end, Jesus said to Satan, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

    Luke 10:17-19 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.”

    John 8:44 “You are just like your true father, the devil; and you spend your time pursuing the things your father loves. He started out as a killer, and he cannot tolerate truth because he is void of anything true. At the core of his character, he is a liar; everything he speaks originates in these lies because he is the father of lies.”

    Matthew 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    Ephesians 6:11 Our job as believers is to, “Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes.”

    1 Peter 5:8-9 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

    Now let's examine this claim you made about Satan:

    Phat writes:

    This argument is used to support Lucifer's defense that he was foreknown to become satan.

    Where in the above Biblical passages does it say that Lucifer "was foreknown to become Satan"?

    You can dismiss it all as a goat herder story but you cant argue that God is evil.

    So though God has wiped out entire nations, and once even killed almost every living thing on Earth, he's not evil. How many murders would God have to commit before you deemed him evil?

    Through Jesus Christ God defeated evil.

    Since you can't deny that evil still exists in the world today, how can you claim JCG defeated evil?

    You of course still have the argument as to why (hypothetically) God allowed Lucifer to become Satan but were I you,...

    Where in the above Biblical passages does it say that God allowed Lucifer to become Satan?

    --Percy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 574 by Phat, posted 08-27-2021 4:26 PM Phat has seen this message

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 20753
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 613 of 682 (888003)
    08-29-2021 11:44 AM
    Reply to: Message 601 by Tangle
    08-28-2021 2:02 PM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    Tangle writes:

    Sounds like you think it a minor slip. Hitler's only mistake was gassing a million Jews! Oops!

    It might be several times more than that.

    --Percy

    Edited by Percy, : Fix quote.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 601 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2021 2:02 PM Tangle has taken no action

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 20753
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 615 of 682 (888005)
    08-29-2021 12:25 PM
    Reply to: Message 569 by Phat
    08-27-2021 12:12 PM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    Phat writes:

    And if he has foreknowledge that ISIS will commit a suicide bomber attack at the Kabul airport that will kill 13 American troops and at least 45 Afghanis and he permits it to happen, then he is evil.

    What you guys don't understand is that God is under no obligation to save human lives.

    If you say so, but in that case he evil.

    The fact that you label Him as evil tells me that you have another spirit within your logic.

    Yes, I have another spirit within me, one God apparently does not possess. It's called the spirit of compassion and mercy and humanity.

    The same vibe that tells you He is evil is itself evil incarnate. I know that sounds whacky.

    Sure wacky, but also just a bald declaration with no basis in fact. It seems more like a gut reaction: "You insulted my God, so I'll insult you." You're not really having a discussion with the people here. You're just making a random series of unsupported assertions that have little to do with the posts you're replying to.

    But you have never been a believer due to lack of objective evidence....as if everything in the universe needs objective evidence before humans can call it a reality.

    Well, duh.

    If we still want to explore hypotheticals,...

    I don't think you know what that word means.

    ...maybe our next question is why I can believe in a God with no objective evidence and why such a God would want to be so vague.

    Why would you believe in anything that has no objective evidence, particularly something that is so inconstant and that has been the target of flim-flam since the beginning of time.

    --Percy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 569 by Phat, posted 08-27-2021 12:12 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 635 by Phat, posted 09-01-2021 1:46 PM Percy has replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 20753
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 657 of 682 (888086)
    09-02-2021 11:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 612 by Phat
    08-29-2021 11:36 AM


    Re: Daffy Duck
    Phat writes:

    I don't answer it because I honestly feel you are blinded to reality.
    ...
    Well at least your blood sugar is under control. Mine is dropping....9.8% last time I checked as I had a toe amputated Friday.

    You broke the irony meter when you accused someone else of being blind to reality. You can't even manage your diabetes to save your own life, but you think we should take financial and religious advice from you? What is it in your brain that is telling you you are thinking clearly, but because whatever it is it is wrong. Your missing toe is practically screaming how wrong you are at you.

    You must have ignored reality an incredible number of times to reach an A1C% around 11 while your toes ulcerated eventually resulting in an amputation.

    An A1C% of 9.8 is better than 11, sure, BUT IT IS STILL TERRIBLE AND VERY DANGEROUS. You don't have time to gradually drop your A1C%. If the cause is lack of exercise, poor diet and poor insulin management then these can be fixed as of this very moment. There's a great deal of inertia in that A1C%. Once it's elevated it can be kind of self-maintaining. You're going to have to work very hard and be very disciplined.

    If you don't fix this very quickly you're in a group with a very high mortality rate. 50% of diabetics who have a toe amputation die within two years, not because toe amputation is so terrible, but because it's a an indicator of how poor their diabetes management is.

    --Percy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 612 by Phat, posted 08-29-2021 11:36 AM Phat has taken no action

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 20753
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.2


    (1)
    Message 658 of 682 (888087)
    09-02-2021 11:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 635 by Phat
    09-01-2021 1:46 PM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    Phat writes:

    Percy writes:

    Why would you believe in anything that has no objective evidence, particularly something that is so inconstant and that has been the target of flim-flam since the beginning of time.

    Because I think and believe for myself and not for what some group of people tell me I should believe in.

    And how's that working out for you? How's your health, wealth and career prospects? Are you widely admired, your advice eagerly sought?

    Every time you give us a personal update we find that things are far worse than you'd previously let on, so I wonder if your life is collapsing around you in a cascade of mounting problems. Are you in debt? Did your metals investment people extend you credit? Did you file your income taxes yet this year? Are your property taxes up to date? Your condo fees? Are you being dunned? Have your wages been garnished? Is your car running? Are you one missing paycheck away from financial disaster? I'm just wondering what is driving this gusher of determined irrationality from you.

    Nobody here is telling you what to believe. It is you who is telling everyone else what to believe. What we often do is describe for you a method for discerning what is likely true about reality, but still unable to anchor ideas in facts you prefer to wallow in fictions and fantasies.

    At least not your group of people. You guys have no problem with abolishing organized religion and letting what you would believe to be a fair and impartial government---be it national or even global---distribute from each according to his ability to each according to their need.

    Why did you write this? No one here is saying anything like this. No one here is advocating Marxism. These are just the rantings of someone whose mounting problems are clouding his thinking.

    --Percy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 635 by Phat, posted 09-01-2021 1:46 PM Phat has taken no action

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 20753
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.2


    (1)
    Message 661 of 682 (888091)
    09-02-2021 12:52 PM
    Reply to: Message 637 by Phat
    09-01-2021 2:10 PM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    Phat writes:

    Percy writes:

    We all, liberals, conservatives, and the entire spectrum in between, want our nation to be strong and prosperous, which requires that the individuals making up our nation also be strong and prosperous. Wishing some portion of our citizens ill only makes the nation as a whole weaker.

    I agree. But I agree more with the libertarians than I do with the liberals.

    You just earlier quoted a libertarian manifesto that was a recipe for anarchy.

    Percy writes:

    you've swallowed hook, line, and sinker the Republican story that treating other races fairly means that you'll suffer, and besides that other races are lazy, immoral, thieves who will rob the public coffers dry and then out-reproduce you to vote into office people who will make your situation even worse.

    I am not a Republican.

    You're a Republican, a member of a growing proportion of Republicans who claim Libertarian leanings to distance themselves from the crazy Donald Republicans who have taken over the party, as if it fools anyone. All you Libertarians-of-convenience are actually conservatives who largely vote Republican. It's not a very effective ruse.

    I agree that there is far too much Racism.

    Then stop practicing racism yourself. Other races becoming better off makes the entire nation wealthier, not you poorer.

    My beef is with government control over my stuff, however.

    Like what stuff?

    Percy writes:

    traditionally the way governments reduce inflation is by raising interest rates to tamp down economic activity thereby reducing demand. This also tends to put downward pressure on wages and employment.

    Based upon the opinions I follow,...

    Stop basing your opinions on other people's opinions. You're a sucker for emotional appeals.

    ...the Fed is trapped. If they raise interest rates, the interest on the debt skyrockets.

    Rising interest rates do not affect the interest rate paid on existing treasuries, and treasury values fall when interest rates rise.

    As far as what the government has to pay out, rising interest rates only affect new debt and the refinancing of maturing debt. If we finance $4 trillion in debt this year and interest rates rise a percentage point then the cost of financing the debt will increase by $40 billion, which is less than 1% of the current federal budget. Please explain how your term "skyrockets" applies here.

    Or are you imagining that interest rates will skyrocket for some reason? Let's examine that scenario. Let's say interest rates rise twenty percentage points. That means the service on our debt will rise $800 billion. That's quite a lot, but it still won't break our budget, plus sky high interest rates mean the Fed is responding to sky high inflation, so the treasury will be paying off debt in cheaper dollars to our creditors. China is a creditor, so this scenario would make it much easier for us to pay our debt to China.

    Many of the Libertarians I follow say that they feel the interest rates will actually go negative.

    That would require a severe recession, which could force conditions where we'd need negative interest rates to encourage spending. Do your Libertarians see a severe recession happening?

    Percy writes:

    What we could do with less of is the claptrap someone's filling your head with.

    Lets examine some of what I DO listen to.
    The War on Cash Is Here, Gold Will Be the Only Road to Freedom Says Renowned Columnist

    This Is How the Financial System Dies: Protect Your Money Now Urges Lynette Zang

    The Great Reset And Your House

    Neil Oliver: ‘The West is firmly in the grip, not of a virus, but of delusional madness’

    Is The Dollar Going To Crash? Interview with @Peter Schiff

    You're listening to claptrap. You're filling your head with garbage.

    --Percy

    Edited by Percy, : liberal => libertarian up near the top


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 637 by Phat, posted 09-01-2021 2:10 PM Phat has seen this message

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 20753
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.2


    (3)
    Message 662 of 682 (888092)
    09-02-2021 1:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 641 by Phat
    09-01-2021 3:36 PM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    Phat writes:

    You ignored my questions.

    No he didn't. He showed they were irrelevant by challenging your underlying assumption, that government control is becoming overarching.

    We have government to provide for the public good. That's why Libertarian philosophy is hogwash. We need a military, traffic lights and garbage pickup, just some of the many responsibilities of government. And just as our humanity has become more enlightened over the centuries, so have our ideas of governance. In Libertarianism all men are islands and the world is impoverished, while modern government creates a world of plenty.

    A Libertarian world would have fewer rules, but most of us appreciate that people stop at red lights and don't dump their garbage in the town square. Libertarianism is idealistic and utopian, impossible in reality.

    Do you want to hear a modern lie?

  • Inflation Is Transitory.
  • The only person who's expressed this thought is you. The reality is that like all elements of a modern economy, inflation varies over time in response to changing circumstances.

    --Percy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 641 by Phat, posted 09-01-2021 3:36 PM Phat has seen this message

      
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