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Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 459 of 794 (882585)
09-29-2020 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by AZPaul3
09-29-2020 12:13 PM


Re: Ringos Only Standard. The BIG E
AZPaul3 writes:
I can understand "evidence" being a big pain in the ass for you since you have none and we have it all but I'm not clear to what specific word you refer.
You know the word is evidence. And its not true that you guys in any way have it all and that I have none. And that even assumes that physical evidence is even possible in this day and age (regarding Gods existence)
Edited by Phat, : removed cussing. I'm keeping my "demon" in check.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by AZPaul3, posted 09-29-2020 12:13 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by AZPaul3, posted 09-29-2020 4:49 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 461 of 794 (884572)
02-25-2021 5:36 AM
Reply to: Message 442 by AZPaul3
09-20-2020 1:16 PM


Re: Marketing A Supernatural Reality
AZ writes:
Still took a few months to come completely out of the closet and become the annoying atheist I am today but I've been spook/ghost-free, conscience-clear and firmly embedded in reality (except for the occasional chemical-induced side trip) ever since.
Maybe you just think that you are spook-free. If I were a 5000 year old disembodied personality in search of a host, what better candidate than an educated and somewhat wise liberally minded mature man from the pagan haunts of Arizona? He wouldn't even believe that I exist (nor my Boss nor his Boss) he is a strong anti-theist, and he sees the handwriting on the wall regarding the inevitability of global warming and the worst behavior of humans.
disembodied personality in search of host writes:
My job is to keep him fighting the Christians. He seems too nice to Phat, though. I need to get together with Phats demon to see if we can keep them hating each other.
Edited by Phat, : attributing demon with hypothetical argument

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 442 by AZPaul3, posted 09-20-2020 1:16 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by AZPaul3, posted 02-25-2021 2:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 463 of 794 (886656)
05-29-2021 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 460 by AZPaul3
09-29-2020 4:49 PM


Re: Ringos Only Standard. The BIG E
AZ writes:
The evidence you THINK you have involves a hand-scratched and much-embellished compendium of ancient myths with zero confidence in their authorship/legitimacy/efficacy and more centers on your emotional feelings, wants, desires, and wishful thinking.
I certainly wouldn't say that I have zero confidence in the likelihood of something behind the stories, traditions, and experiences of the Holy Spiritually minded. We are a bit exclusivist, but only because we believe that those of you who have bought into spiritual inclusivity and relative equivalence among religions and"spirits" are in error. I can't speak for all of *us* but I think that our budding Pastor, Raphael, has a lot of love for the rest of society that does not attend any church. (I'll let him speak for himself, though ) I DO think that religion and spirituality are here to stay as our planet and our global population moves into a critical time and challenge. There are a lot of people on this rock. Somehow, we all need to find a way to live and let live. GOD if God exists does not want us fighting each other. The demons surely do. (If they exist) And I think that your disdain for organized religion won't help you in the long run. If times get tough, more people will turn to religion during the lean times. It is in my opinion inevitable.
Edited by Phat, : spelling

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by AZPaul3, posted 09-29-2020 4:49 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 464 by Tangle, posted 05-29-2021 4:52 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 465 of 794 (886687)
05-31-2021 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 464 by Tangle
05-29-2021 4:52 PM


Re: Ringos Only Standard. The BIG E
Tangle writes:
You're going to be really obsequious with your new guru aren't you?
Hardly.
quote:
Obsequious people are usually not being genuine; they resort to flattery and other fawning ways to stay in the good graces of authority figures. An obsequious person can be called a bootlicker, a brownnoser or a toady.
Just so everyone knows, I have known Raphael in an internet conversational sort of way since he was just out of High School.
I think that *you* think that I will treat Raphael the same way I responded to ICANT in Message 1

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by Tangle, posted 05-29-2021 4:52 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by Tangle, posted 05-31-2021 2:38 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 491 of 794 (887398)
08-02-2021 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 470 by ringo
08-01-2021 10:45 AM


Re: Let It Go, Phat! Do Something Useful For Yourself
The only reason the punishee cares is that he questions the authority of the source of the punishment. You always argued in defense of satan and hypothetically wondered whether or not he was actually the good guy.
Were I the one being punished, I might want to at least know if I was being punished by the Lawmen or the criminals.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by ringo, posted 08-01-2021 10:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 493 by ringo, posted 08-02-2021 9:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 500 of 794 (887688)
08-20-2021 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 395 by jar
06-25-2020 8:54 PM


Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
Phat, you simply refuse to listen. It is a willful behavior that has been an obvious trait for almost two decades.
The Evil was in creating.
There is no way around it Phat.
You simply worships a true shit piece of a god.
Stop and think. You have asserted before that GOD is complete.(Both good and evil)
I would counter that by saying He allowed for the possibility of evil and that Lucifer actualized it. (to fit the dogmatic storyline)
So the question is this:
If God foreknew that Lucifer would choose the possibility of evil (go along with my made-up hypothesis) is God evil for allowing Lucifer to personify evil?
  • Is GOD evil IF He allowed for the possibility of evil?
  • Does it really matter if He foreknew the outcome? If so, WHY?
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 395 by jar, posted 06-25-2020 8:54 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 501 by jar, posted 08-20-2021 10:59 AM Phat has replied
     Message 502 by AZPaul3, posted 08-20-2021 11:28 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 503 by ringo, posted 08-20-2021 11:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 504 by Percy, posted 08-20-2021 2:36 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 505 of 794 (887694)
    08-20-2021 3:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 501 by jar
    08-20-2021 10:59 AM


    Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
    I cant believe how dense you are concerning this hypothesis.
    If GOD created Angels initially and in some way there was the knowing possibility that these Angels could choose whether or not to do His bidding, is He evil at the point that He knowing created the possibility for Angelic rebellion? Keep in mind that I'm being hypothetical yet am following a dogma that has pervaded the church at large. I am asking you a simple question. Not expecting a lecture about how I refuse to read or understand...these are all tactics that YOU use to frame your issues and dismiss mine.
    The God you worship is evil because he does evil.
    Oh? So who wrote the book? After all, the evolving Bible was (according to you) authored, edited and redacted by man. So to begin with, you argue that humans created God.(And define GOD and god). So from the jump, your argument assumes these things.
    I am simply asking you to consider a hypothetical. Which is:
    1) GOD is the Creator of all seen and unseen. He(She,It) is unlike any God described throughout human literature by people thus far.
    All I am doing is ascribing to Him/Her/It some basic characteristics so as to form my hypothetical.
    2) I am NOT trying to market nor describe the implausible GOD that you have alluded to...namely One who is inclusive, a product of human descriptions, and Whom expects humans to answer their own charge which they were given the grace and ability to do since day 1.
    jar writes:
    If a god has foreknowledge and creates some who will be damned then that god is vile, evil, despicable, and utterly without worth or merit.
    OK let's go with this a minute. "If a god" creates none who will be damned what then do we do with evil? How is explained?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 501 by jar, posted 08-20-2021 10:59 AM jar has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 506 by PaulK, posted 08-20-2021 3:44 PM Phat has replied
     Message 509 by AZPaul3, posted 08-20-2021 4:30 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 511 by ringo, posted 08-21-2021 11:50 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 507 of 794 (887698)
    08-20-2021 3:48 PM
    Reply to: Message 506 by PaulK
    08-20-2021 3:44 PM


    Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
    With perfect foreknowledge it’s not just a possibility - it’s an inevitability. A deliberately chosen inevitability.
    Now deal with that.
    The apologetic canned answers still seem to work.
    Choosing Jesus is the option that negates the power of evil.
    The fact that God allowed evil to exist as an "attractive nuisance" seems to be a separate issue. It describes a God that humans are expected to correct and discipline. Deal with that.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 506 by PaulK, posted 08-20-2021 3:44 PM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 508 by PaulK, posted 08-20-2021 4:08 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 512 of 794 (887813)
    08-22-2021 4:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 511 by ringo
    08-21-2021 11:50 AM


    Gods responsibility for everything and the judgement of such
    ringo writes:
    You can't have an omniscient god who "allows the possibility of evil" but is not responsible for evil. It's having your cake and eating it too. Can't happen.
    But in the apologetic hypothetical that I have described (and which would likely be accepted by many evangelicals) it *did* happen. God allowed Lucifer the ability to separate from Him as your kid may decide to separate from you. If you allowed your kid to leave home and build his own nest and if he somehow chose to become an ax murderer and if you magically could know the future and know that he would do it, would it then be your responsibility to prevent it? Discuss.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 511 by ringo, posted 08-21-2021 11:50 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 513 by PaulK, posted 08-22-2021 4:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 514 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 4:51 PM Phat has replied
     Message 515 by jar, posted 08-22-2021 5:42 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 524 by ringo, posted 08-23-2021 11:47 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 516 of 794 (887836)
    08-23-2021 2:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 510 by jar
    08-20-2021 5:04 PM


    Hypothetically Speaking
    Is God the creator of all that is seen and unseen?
    Yes.
    Does God have foreknowledge?
    The jury is out on this one. PaulK describes why.
    PaulK writes:
    You have two options if you want to be honest. First you can insist that God has limits which absolve him of responsibility. Alternatively you can accept that the position you are arguing against is correct.
    I cant accept that God is evil simply for knowing an outcome, but I will go with the idea that God has chosen to have llimits regarding absolute foreknowledge. (with humans, at any rate)
    Is anyone sent to hell?
    We send ourselves to hell by denying Jesus. Hell is simply a place where fallen spirits reside. Ostensibly we would end up there by our own wishes to be as autonomous and rebellious (towards the Holy Spirit, the Living Christ, and the Creator of all seen and unseen) as the fallen hosts are. God merely created a spot where angels could openly and freely oppose Him, deny Him, and mock Him. They seal their own fate by having made these choices. Nobody...human or angelic...is ever sent to hell. They willingly go there.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 510 by jar, posted 08-20-2021 5:04 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 521 by dwise1, posted 08-23-2021 4:27 AM Phat has replied
     Message 522 by jar, posted 08-23-2021 6:51 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 517 of 794 (887837)
    08-23-2021 2:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 514 by AZPaul3
    08-22-2021 4:51 PM


    Re: Gods responsibility for everything and the judgement of such
    AZ writes:
    With this god-like knowledge the kid would never have been conceived let alone be born.
    So are you hypothetically suggesting that the only proper thing for a God to do is create a people who will all succeed? Protecting people from exposure (and overdose of) evil is akin to bubble boy....who is vulnerable to all viruses having lived in a sterile environment.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 514 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 4:51 PM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 520 by Tangle, posted 08-23-2021 3:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 523 by AZPaul3, posted 08-23-2021 9:25 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 518 of 794 (887839)
    08-23-2021 2:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 508 by PaulK
    08-20-2021 4:08 PM


    Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
    PaulK writes:
    Presenting inevitability as a mere possibility is not honest, and obviously so.
    I only argue that Lucifer *had* to become Satan to fulfill the freedom for humans to rebel. Humans are the ones dealing with the possibility of evil rather than the inevitability of evil.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 508 by PaulK, posted 08-20-2021 4:08 PM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 519 by PaulK, posted 08-23-2021 2:55 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 526 of 794 (887885)
    08-25-2021 2:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 525 by PaulK
    08-23-2021 12:16 PM


    Re: Let us try a simpler analogy.
    PaulK writes:
    God made Lucifer in the full knowledge that by making Lucifer as he did, Lucifer would inevitably Fall with everything that would come with that. God could have made Lucifer differently, so he would have chosen otherwise. Because God created Lucifer in the full knowledge of everything Lucifer would do God made all those choices first, Lucifer’s choices are all the choices that God chose for him. Lucifer is just God’s puppet and so God - who made all the real choices - is responsible for Lucifer’s actions. Lucifer has no more agency than the bomb.
    You have a good argument. I think that as we discuss these hypotheticals we should keep in mind first that I think much differently from most of you.
    Namely...
  • I believe that GOD actually exists through Jesus Christ and is not simply a character in literature and an ever-evolving species. You tend to see God as many character metaphors originating from human development and awareness. So from the start, we have differing perspectives. And for the sake of argument I am not claiming to be right and you wrong, though I sometimes feel that you guys see me as wrong solely on the presumption that God(or a living Christ) IS in fact a human creation and that I and most other CCoI (Christian Culture Of Ignorance--a term jar and I once defined) are engaged in a collective fantasy.
  • When discussing GOD (Creator of all seen and unseen) hypothetically, your side maintains that such a Deity does in fact have full responsibility for everything that He creates. I would argue that while in a philosophical and moral sense this statement is true, we humans also have essentially been given a choice. If not, how could there be any solution except unbelief and getting on with life in the "real world"? And for a believer, that simply cannot be.
  • Hypothetically, this "War In Heaven" happened a long time ago...at least from an apologetic perspective. The whole Free Will paradox was settled by the angelic realm. Humans came along after that decision was settled. Thus...arguing in Lucifers defense is moot. Either there is in fact a spiritual war and human decision or the whole story and scenario is clearly made up. I believe the former and you believe the latter.
    To jars credit, his scenario concerning human choice based on empathy and works rather than religious bleating (Lord, Lord...) deserves a mention.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 525 by PaulK, posted 08-23-2021 12:16 PM PaulK has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 539 by Percy, posted 08-25-2021 1:11 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 527 of 794 (887886)
    08-25-2021 2:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 524 by ringo
    08-23-2021 11:47 AM


    Re: Gods responsibility for everything and the judgement of such
    ringo writes:
    If you know something bad is going to happen and you do nothing to prevent it, you are evil. Period.
    So are you suggesting that God was responsible for Lucifer's decision to become autonomous? If so, how else could future civilizations
    be given a choice if there was only one door through which to go?
    And before you answer, I can almost hear one possible answer: "We have been given a choice. Our choice is to dismiss all such mythos as outdated thinking, march forward with our human-derived and originated science and evidence-based thinking, and make our own world in a responsible and myth-free way."
    Which sounds like something you or Tangle might vigorously agree with.
    And the only reason for us discussing these hypotheticals between religious and nonreligious thinking is that there are many many believers who will live in this world along with our children and the thinking processes and beliefs will continually clash.
    Ultimately whether or not God and Jesus are reality or myth, the effect of such beliefs will impact the future.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 524 by ringo, posted 08-23-2021 11:47 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 540 by Percy, posted 08-25-2021 1:41 PM Phat has replied
     Message 544 by ringo, posted 08-25-2021 3:15 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 528 of 794 (887887)
    08-25-2021 2:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 523 by AZPaul3
    08-23-2021 9:25 AM


    Re: Gods responsibility for everything and the judgement of such
    AZ writes:
    I’m suggesting the only proper thing for a God to do is to appear in public, admit it’s a charlatan, a fake, a carnie, and then disintegrate back into the void never to torment us again. But since it doesn’t exist we have the commission to spread the word to all the world ourselves.
    That sounds like something you would say. But were I a betting man, I would wager that at some level you believe in some form of hocus pocus and Majik that humans have that is ok to embrace. You are not strictly a nuts and bolts evidence-based science guy, from what I can tell.
    Had we known each other 40 years ago, we may well have been in a park, high on LSD or Magic Mushrooms having these very same discussions.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 523 by AZPaul3, posted 08-23-2021 9:25 AM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 532 by AZPaul3, posted 08-25-2021 3:19 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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