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Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 197 of 794 (876702)
05-26-2020 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by jar
05-26-2020 8:44 AM


Re: Gatekeepers
jar writes:
Think Phat, really try it. You might even like it.
Would a loving father let his child in the house?
Sure. Even if you screwed up.
But what of his adult son who defied his every ideal?
And lets add a scrip for fuel to this topic:
Matt 12:46-50 writes:
While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You."
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."
NKJV
FYI, I am thinking. I may take a nap soon and then wake up, make some coffee, and think again. What's your daily routine?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by jar, posted 05-26-2020 8:44 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 200 of 794 (876770)
05-27-2020 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by PaulK
05-26-2020 11:47 PM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
honestly? No (at least in the case of Isaiah. I discern that he is honest. I do see a bit of a promotional aspect to his personality, and I do see that he is zealous, but I dont think he is lying. He has had experiences with the supernatural (or unexplained realm) and I have had them. They make no sense to the rational mind, and they are objectively unverifiable as far as I know....but I believe they happen.
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The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by PaulK, posted 05-26-2020 11:47 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2020 12:26 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 202 of 794 (876777)
05-28-2020 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by PaulK
05-28-2020 12:26 AM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
You didn't click my link. I'm talking about Isaiah Saldivar, not the other guy talking about the book of Isaiah

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2020 12:26 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2020 3:20 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 204 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2020 3:49 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 206 of 794 (876784)
05-28-2020 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by dwise1
05-28-2020 4:02 AM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
I will admit that different world views DO come into play here. You know all too well the behavioral patterns of fired-up evangelicals, and a new wave of them is being recruited(by the Holy Spirit, we will claim) in our current day and age due to anxieties over Covid-19 and the twilight of the American Empire in light of Chinas ascendancy onto the global stage. jar would claim that *we* as a country are still very wealthy and capable of being a global player, and that as responsible citizens (nevermind Christians) we can decide our future fate at the ballot box, but I see challenges and potential problems. The young evangelical movement is genuine and passionate. Intellectuals may scoff at the whole "casting out devils" part of the agenda, but I've seen evidence of it personally and won't question it to the point of doubt. That is a strategy of the enemy and not mine. I should have realized by now that bringing this stuff up here at EvC will never be an argument that I can win, but I stand by my beliefs and respect Isaiah for his ability to explain to Christians a practical and experience-based proof that the supernatural does in fact exist and that the modern church needs to sanctify themselves and prepare for a massive move of God in the coming months and years...however long we have on this planet.
David, you know that I will never convince many of you here, nor is that even really my intention. If the God Whom I believe in is real and if Jesus Christ is living through us and is actively involved then He is not preparing us to simply stay on this planet and rebuild a globalist, inclusive world that takes care of its own. He is calling us to awaken people into receiving Him and preparing us for the inevitable judgment and transformation of His people versus the ones who simply refuse to accept Him.
My goal (in this topic anyway) is to make a case that our days are in fact numbered here on earth and that a global secular-based government will in fact happen at some point and that it won't be the final answer. Isaiah is very good at the discernment of scripture, and this is an issue we can argue about...what scripture really means and whether or not the Bible is more than simply another ancient book of religion.
We here at EvC have discussed some basic points of contention between an evangelical charismatic based faith and literalist interpretation vs a more seemingly balanced reality-based approach to scripture and to the calling of a loving individual regarding future responsibility towards one's fellow man.
Perhaps instead of accusing me of simply pushing "lying apologists" at you, you can challenge me on my role in life, future events, who to elect and who not to elect, and whether or not humans will finally transcend this "psychological fantasy" or whether the fantasy itself is turning out to be patently real.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by dwise1, posted 05-28-2020 4:02 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by ringo, posted 05-28-2020 12:38 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 207 of 794 (876785)
05-28-2020 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by PaulK
05-28-2020 3:49 AM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
PaulK writes:
Anyway, does this Isaiah Saldivar offer any rational arguments that you’d care to discuss? If so, let’s hear them. I’m getting tired of being told to watch videos you won’t even talk about. It’s just a pointless waste of my time and contrary to the purpose of this forum.
First of all, who are you to frame the purpose of this forum? And if its a waste of your time go mow the lawn or do the dishes. Moving on, I feel that Isaiah makes a solid case for the reality of spiritual warfare. As far as evidence goes, the evidence that I once experienced is experienced by many people today but unless and until you yourself develop a hunger for God, you will simply sit on the sidelines watching it all and will remain skeptical and untransformed or delivered.
I have never personally received a deliverance for anything (any demon or assignment) oppressing me, but it likely will happen one of these days. I don't seek it...I seek Jesus Christ and to know Him better. I enjoy some of our conversations, but when the Bible speaks clearly to me regarding the perfection of love and truth being made man and after having to suffer and die making a way for the rest of us, I become rather uninterested in logic-based arguments that critique scripture, attempt to dismantle the Living Word and reduce seekers to skeptics.
Add by Edit: Here is a Bible question for you:
  • Who is known as the deceiver of the brethren? What are this characters methods as written?
    Edited by Phat, : added question

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 204 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2020 3:49 AM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 208 by Tangle, posted 05-28-2020 10:33 AM Phat has replied
     Message 210 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2020 11:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 209 of 794 (876788)
    05-28-2020 10:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 208 by Tangle
    05-28-2020 10:33 AM


    Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
    Tangle writes:
    Why does god only talk to some people and not others?
    I would personally reframe the question.
  • Does God (Jesus Christ) only talk to some people and not others?
    And my answer would then be no.
    And then at the risk of being called out for preaching, I would explain why I believe that Jesus Christ talks to everyone. He really does, you know.
    Edited by Phat, : entering preaching mode

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 208 by Tangle, posted 05-28-2020 10:33 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 212 by Tangle, posted 05-28-2020 1:23 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 213 of 794 (876872)
    05-29-2020 7:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 211 by ringo
    05-28-2020 12:38 PM


    Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
    You're trying to convince yourself that you're infallible.
    This does not follow. Just because I take a stand on belief to the exclusion of doubt does not portray infallibility. Perhaps arrogance at worst. I might claim that you see science logic as tentatively infallible, even though it has no ability to measure the supernatural. Comments?

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 211 by ringo, posted 05-28-2020 12:38 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 219 by ringo, posted 05-30-2020 12:27 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 214 of 794 (876874)
    05-29-2020 7:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 212 by Tangle
    05-28-2020 1:23 PM


    Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
    He does not speak to me. Or anyone I know. (...)If he/it ever did there'd be no atheists and everyone would be a Christian.
    It takes two to make a connection. God speaks to all yet only a few hear His voice. This is not His fault unless you claim that His goal should have been to save everybody, free will be damned.
    Matt 13:16-17 writes:
    16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
    Whose fault is that? Is God at fault because you somehow cannot hear Him?
    ************************************************************
    Also consider the following debate:
    Matt: Why is it that you do not believe in God?
    Dan: Because there is no evidence that he exists.
    Matt: You can't say that because you have not looked at all evidence in the world. That isn't possible.
    Dan: Let's just say I don't see sufficient evidence for God's existence.
    Matt: But, if a person asked you what kind of things you'd accept, within reason, as evidence for God, what would you say? If you have nothing to offer, then you haven't thought your position through . . . and if you haven't done that, then can you honestly lay claim to the title atheist?
    Dan: Come up with a way that you would believe in unicorns, and I'll show you a way to fake it. You come up with an airtight way to believe in unicorns, then get back to me about the illogic of my position.
    Matt: The way to believe in unicorns is to find one or have pictures of one or a fossil of one or a bunch of people who said they saw one; and they all described, basically, the same thing: a unicorn. That would be a way.
    Dan: Well, how about, if he [God] could do something that was clearly illogical, like make a square circle, and show it to me. Then I would believe.
    Matt: A square circle is a non-sequitur. It is self-contradictory by definition. God cannot violate his own nature. Besides, how would you comprehend such a contradictory thing if it somehow were able to be done? You wouldn't know it, and your proof would be useless since you couldn't understand it. Besides, it can't be done anyway.
    Dan: Why not?
    Matt: Can you violate your own nature? Can you will yourself to be bigger than the sun?
    Dan: No, but if there is a god, I'd expect him to exist outside of logic.
    Matt: Perhaps, but not against logic since He created it.
    Dan: If he created logic, why can't He do things that run against it?
    Matt: If God created the universe and everything in it, then he created it out of his own nature. The design and natural laws had to originate in His mind. Therefore, it will have His characteristics woven into it: logic, physics, etc. These are all reflections of God's awesome creative character. Also, since God is self-sufficient, He cannot be self-contradictory. Otherwise, He could not sustain Himself. Therefore, He cannot violate His own nature.
    Dan: So? Is he limited to the things he built into the universe? Isn't he omnipotent?
    Matt: Yes . . .
    Dan: Why can't he act against His own universe?
    Matt: He could. He could destroy the entire universe. But He chooses not to.
    Dan: What a crock. Just like I could stomp the earth and crush all armies with a wave of my hand. I just choose not to. Your argument isn't valid.
    Matt: Why? Just because God doesn't choose to do something He has the power to do, it does not mean He does not exist. After all, does it prove that you do not exist if you choose not to do something you could do? If you choose not to clap your hands right now, does that mean you do not exist? Of course not.
    Dan: [no response]
    Matt: Think about this. God choosing to not exercise His will in something is the same as you choosing not to exercise belief in a god. You could, but you just don't. Both are a lack of action. So, how can you complain against God for not moving according to your criteria when you choose to not move at all in belief in Him?
    At this point, the conversation ended . . .
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 212 by Tangle, posted 05-28-2020 1:23 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 215 by PaulK, posted 05-30-2020 1:30 AM Phat has replied
     Message 218 by Tangle, posted 05-30-2020 2:17 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 220 by ringo, posted 05-30-2020 12:33 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 216 of 794 (876888)
    05-30-2020 1:53 AM
    Reply to: Message 215 by PaulK
    05-30-2020 1:30 AM


    Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
    If so, God would be forced to fix what He broke, which makes no sense. The whole point is that it is WE who must use our free will to fix what was broken, regardless of Who broke it.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 215 by PaulK, posted 05-30-2020 1:30 AM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 217 by PaulK, posted 05-30-2020 2:14 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 221 of 794 (877003)
    06-01-2020 12:13 PM
    Reply to: Message 215 by PaulK
    05-30-2020 1:30 AM


    Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
    PaulK writes:
    If I’m trying to communicate with a deaf person it’s my job to try to make myself understood. If I don’t make my best efforts that’s my fault. Free will has nothing to do with it.
  • Was the deaf person ever capable of hearing you or did they simply have their ears covered up?
    Rev 2:7 writes:
    He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
    Obviously God owes it to every person a means of hearing. But lets play with some common dogma and analogies, shall we?
    First off, why was there a war in Heaven?
    Rev 12:7-9 writes:
    7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down-- that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth and his angels with him.
    It has been my understanding that God created the angels and 1/3 of them chose autonomy over subjection to authority. God never created Lucifer as evil and autonomous, however. Ostensibly that angel had an "ear". It also had a brain and a will.
    God supposedly has the capability, so if he doesn’t use it that’s his decision.
    Indeed. Everything is His decision. Perhaps one can argue that it was His decision to allow us to make our decision(s).
  • Did God create Lucifer with the ability to rebel and seek autonomy? If so, is it still God's fault? And what court could possibly indict Him? He who is without sin cast the first stone. The court would not possess a moral high ground.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 215 by PaulK, posted 05-30-2020 1:30 AM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 224 by PaulK, posted 06-01-2020 12:30 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 222 of 794 (877004)
    06-01-2020 12:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 220 by ringo
    05-30-2020 12:33 PM


    Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
    ringo writes:
    Did you get that garbage from a Jack Chick tract?
    Actually it was Matt Slick and CARM. I was just adding fool to the fire

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 220 by ringo, posted 05-30-2020 12:33 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 223 of 794 (877005)
    06-01-2020 12:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 219 by ringo
    05-30-2020 12:27 PM


    Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
    ringo writes:
    Why else would you refuse to question your conclusions except that you think you're infallible?
    Maybe because I believe that He is infallible.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 219 by ringo, posted 05-30-2020 12:27 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 225 by ringo, posted 06-01-2020 12:41 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 226 of 794 (877015)
    06-01-2020 1:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 224 by PaulK
    06-01-2020 12:30 PM


    Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
    PaulK writes:
    Do angels even have free will? That’s something I’ve seen denied
    I always believed that Angels had free will but no opportunity for repentance. Once you decide, the decision is forever yours.
    Ps 103:20-22 writes:
    NKJV-- Bless the LORD, you His angels,
    Who excel in strength, who do His word, Heeding the voice of His word. Bless the LORD, all you His hosts, You ministers of His, who do His pleasure. Bless the LORD, all His works,
    In all places of His dominion. Bless the LORD, O my soul!
    This scripture mentions God's Word. My side says that His Word was in the beginning, before all stars,planets, galaxies, and ideas of ancient goatherders were even conceived.
    An opponent might claim that humans wrote, edited, redacted, and defined any and all Bibles and that in fact words are spoken only by and through humans, as far as we currently know.
    Let me see what Google has compiled on this:
    LTB.Org writes:
    no scripture declares that angels have no free will. From the fact of the fall of so many of them, they obviously have some form of self- determination. That is, they have the freedom to remain in that holy estate into which they were placed by the creation or to leave their first estate for a lower one. "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day" (Jude 1:6). Clearly, they are not robots unable to do anything but obey God.
    However, their condition is not like that of man. Man can be redeemed from his fallen state by the applied blood of Jesus Christ. The fallen angels have no means by which they can return to their first estate after they leave it. They will all be cast into the "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41).
    Also, there is no mix of obedience with disobedience in the angels as there often is in regenerate man. The angels in heaven perform the commandments of God with full obedience (Psalm 103:20-21). The fallen angels are simply "the angels that sinned" (2Peter 2:4). No good is seen in them.
    We will probably never be able to grasp with fullness the reason for the angels to rebel against God and leave their heavenly estate. They saw God in His absolute glory and holiness. They saw the greatness of His power. What could they hope to gain by a rebellion against such a God? However, scripture does reveal the initial motivation for their rebellion. From a study of Satan and his part in leading the rebellion, we know that their rebellion was fueled by willful pride. Isaiah 14:12-15 gives important insight into this matter. In this passage, Satan (as Lucifer) states five times, "I will." Especially revealing is his fifth declaration: "I will be like the highest" (Isaiah 14:14)
    I know you will point out that it was the King of Tyre and not Satan, but the apologists claim the "type and shadow" argument. After all, if you can successfully argue that the Bible is simply a product of human belief and intelligence, You certainly can make a case that God is also such a human creation. Which you do. This is your world view.
    Can you see mine?

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 224 by PaulK, posted 06-01-2020 12:30 PM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 228 by PaulK, posted 06-01-2020 2:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 229 by jar, posted 06-01-2020 2:30 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 227 of 794 (877016)
    06-01-2020 2:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 225 by ringo
    06-01-2020 12:41 PM


    Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
    ringo writes:
    Even IF your God was infallible, you would also have to believe that you could infallibly understand Him.
    OK, I will concede the fact that we do not know all of the facts nor have all of the understanding.
    I have experienced enough from prayer that I won't place all my eggs of understanding in the science basket either, however.
    There are several reasons why.
  • Humans are imperfect and willfully so. We think that some actions of the flesh are to be allowable and pleasurable if we don't have a reverence for God.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 225 by ringo, posted 06-01-2020 12:41 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 230 by ringo, posted 06-01-2020 3:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 231 of 794 (877034)
    06-02-2020 1:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 229 by jar
    06-01-2020 2:30 PM


    Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
    jar writes:
    "Type and Shadow" is simply "Smoke and Mirrors"; it is word salad the apologists market because they know their audience decided to turn their brains off and check them at the door.
    How is the stated behavior of the King of Tyre any different than what one would expect from satan?

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 229 by jar, posted 06-01-2020 2:30 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 232 by PaulK, posted 06-02-2020 2:05 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 233 by jar, posted 06-02-2020 8:39 AM Phat has replied

      
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