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Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 234 of 794 (877068)
06-03-2020 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by jar
06-02-2020 8:39 AM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
jar writes:
In the Bible Satan is simply a tool that God uses. To consider Satan as evil your apologists need to ignore as always almost all of what is actually written in the Bible.
Why must you always vilify the apologists, whom you also continually lump together as if they were a bunch of Pharisees? The King of Tyre served himself. The King of Tyre had the hallmarks of what some call the unholy trinity: ME MYSELF & I. The King of Tyre is a prototype of the character that is the man of sin---the antichrist. You always limit the book to be a disconnected series of stories, myths, and legends...never connecting the teaching that Jesus Christ is in fact the Messiah and not a failed messiah as you have claimed. In addition, the antichrist is not simply behavior that humans are charged to overcome...he will be an actual person just as Jesus Christ was, is, and always will be an actual person that we accept through belief and communion and who lives in us and allows us to be a shining example of a global body of believers with the head being Him.
Let's start with Jesus. More specifically, the temptation in the wilderness.
Matt 4:1-11 writes:
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. 3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."
4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"
5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:
'He shall give His angels charge over you,' and, 'In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.'"
7 Jesus said to him, "It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the LORD your God.'"
8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."
10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.'"
11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.
NKJV
I dont read this as a simple plot device. Jesus had an actual encounter with an actual devil who tested His character. Perhaps one can argue that the function of satan is as a test for our character and what we choose to do, but Jesus chose to serve God...rather than Himself. That's what the lesson means, in my mind. You seem to teach that Christianity is about what we do, but what we do is reflected in whom we serve. Globalism serves humans and human desires. Christianity is a called-out group of people who serve God first and through that Spiritual Communion take care of each other.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by jar, posted 06-02-2020 8:39 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by jar, posted 06-03-2020 10:52 AM Phat has replied
 Message 236 by ringo, posted 06-03-2020 11:04 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 237 of 794 (877093)
06-04-2020 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by ringo
06-03-2020 11:04 AM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
ringo writes:
If you're going to defend them, defend what they say. Don't just deny, deny, deny.
Lets start with Paul, one of the earliest apologists.
Rom 4:18-6:9 writes:
18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be." 19 Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead-since he was about a hundred years old-and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23 The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness-for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Romans 5
5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned- 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6
6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin- 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dRom 6:9-14
ead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
It's getting late, so let's discuss this more tomorrow.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by ringo, posted 06-03-2020 11:04 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by ringo, posted 06-04-2020 11:06 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 239 of 794 (877176)
06-07-2020 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by ringo
06-04-2020 11:06 AM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
ringo writes:
You dismiss the Bible as a dusty old book, so what's the point of quoting it? We're talking about what the apologists say ABOUT the Bible.
Would you ever accept the label of an apologist upon yourself? After all, it doesn't do much good quoting the Bible if you believe it was written by fallible humans and is itself no evidence of God or Jesus existing apart from or outside the book itself.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by ringo, posted 06-04-2020 11:06 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by ringo, posted 06-07-2020 1:52 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 240 of 794 (877177)
06-07-2020 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by jar
06-03-2020 10:52 AM


Loving God Leads To Effectively Loving & Serving Others
Phat writes:
You seem to teach that Christianity is about what we do, but what we do is reflected in whom we serve.
jar writes:
So you assert but reality says that is just word salad with absolutely no true meaning or value.
Oh, stop! Your favorite scripture has Jesus saying that what we do for the least of these we do for Him. Anyone can go forth simply being a humanist do-gooder and likely will be rewarded by God for doing so, but there will come a point when they meet the King and the tears will flow. Ultimately we either serve our Messiah or we serve ourselves. It really is that simple. But go ahead and feed them. I would advise you not to make a beer run as Jesus did at the Wedding. It sends a bad message...unless you are Jesus.
Feed the hungry, comfort the sorrowful, clothe the naked, protect the weak... it really is that simple. Who we serve should be the least of these our brothers.
I'm not simply gonna indulge a bunch of drunks who disrupt service and loudly ask where the food is. They need to show some respect for the Spirit in charge. Their own little demons simply want them to take advantage of our hospitality while never changing their own behavior so as to become a servant like we are. I do see your point, however.
Phat writes:
Christianity is a called-out group of people who serve God first and through that Spiritual Communion take care of each other.
And perhaps I should have changed that statement to read like this:
Phat writes:
Christianity is a called-out group of people (as were the jews)who serve God first (Loving Him with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength)and through that Spiritual Communion take care of others(The Least Of These).
I wouldn't go so far as to judge anybody as a goat, but if they simply are nice to people and provide beer runs and cheap clothing and food to a bunch of street people who line up daily for a handout, they arguably need to pray more and allow God to give them the anointing and power to expel some of those demons of alcoholism, rejection, curses of various kinds, and other spiritual oppressions. I have no problem with "Feed the hungry, comfort the sorrowful, clothe the naked, protect the weak..." but in order to best serve others you need Communion with the Holy Spirit or you will be at best a socialist humanist buying rounds of beers for the corner bar. So am I preaching to the goats?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by jar, posted 06-03-2020 10:52 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by jar, posted 06-07-2020 7:52 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 242 of 794 (877181)
06-07-2020 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by jar
06-07-2020 7:52 AM


A Beer Run For Jesus??
Phat writes:
So am I preaching to the goats?
jar writes:
No, rather bleating with all the other goats.
You know as well as I do what the Greatest Commandment says.
You have the second part down rather well. Now how about taking the idea of loving God with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strength literally as well. Or do you honestly think that He could care less if you take time each day to talk to Him? And if you truly do unto the least of these as you would do unto Him, do you really think you would get rewarded for buying someone a beer?

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by jar, posted 06-07-2020 7:52 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by jar, posted 06-07-2020 9:11 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 245 of 794 (877193)
06-07-2020 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by jar
06-07-2020 9:11 AM


Re: A Beer Run For Jesus??
jar writes:
The Apologist says, "Do this and you will get rewarded, here on Earth or in Heaven!"
Jesus said "This is your duty. It's not important whether you get rewarded or not, it is your duty."
I believe that it is my duty but acknowledge that I can't (or won't) do it without His strength. There are some people that I just can't love without walking in the Spirit. My carnal nature wants to despise the shoplifter, the counterfeit bill passer, the least of these with the audacity to take from the rest of us.
I need Jesus. I don't have it within me to be an idealistic socialist like ringo.
jar writes:
How does one love God with all their heart, soul, mind, body, strength?
You've said it. Christianity is about what we do. We can love Jesus by loving others.
jar writes:
Well, how exactly can someone hold a conversation with God and know that it is God responding?
Think. The Holy Spirit has power over all other spirits, demons, pesky thoughts, dark urges, and selfish yearnings. Its not as if God is incapable of representing Himself in a world of competing ideologies. If you are having a conversation with God, you will know by what your conscience tells you at that moment...but it does take practice, honesty, and testing the spirits.
1 John 4:1-6 writes:
4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
There are of course other ways to test. What you don't do is throw God away (or throw Jesus away). And of course, you have to be wise and very careful if you start listening to "voices" in your head.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by jar, posted 06-07-2020 9:11 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by jar, posted 06-07-2020 2:24 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 246 of 794 (877194)
06-07-2020 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by ringo
06-07-2020 1:52 PM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
ringo writes:
Again, I don't have to believe Frodo was real to quote The Lord of the Rings. I don't have to believe Tolkien was infallible either.
Why is that so hard to understand?
If you started quoting Long John Silver at me, I would likely ignore you unless the content was applicable to an issue we were debating. On one end of the spectrum, regarding the Bible, we have "Word Of God" and on the other end we have a "dusty book full of mythos".
I usually have trouble accepting spiritual advice from atheists.
You are an exception, though I'm always challenging what you say (and quote).

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by ringo, posted 06-07-2020 1:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by ringo, posted 06-07-2020 9:13 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 248 of 794 (877196)
06-07-2020 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by jar
06-07-2020 2:24 PM


Re: A Beer Run For Jesus??
jar writes:
Can anyone discus any god or God that is not just a human creation? The God(s) of the Bible are all just human creations.
I don't believe it, but let me ask you this: Is Jesus a human creation? Do you think we would have a mandate to follow a character in a book created by man?
I believee that the Bible has value in its content because of the actual existence of Jesus Christ who predated the book. You can claim that John (either Gospel or 1 John) was and is word salad, but let me ask you this: If the book was written by man, what content does it contain that is worth any more than any mans opinion?
Face it jar. You need the Holy Spirit and not simply logic, reason, and reality. Im afraid that you might even be so inclined to believe that they are one and the same thing. That we always need to test ourselves and that the evidence shows that no God exists apart from the behavior (content) of its believers. But you also believe that God logically saves everybody.
I'll go with that for a moment.
I'm thinking of your responses before I even finish my argument.
}

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by jar, posted 06-07-2020 2:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 06-07-2020 3:16 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 251 of 794 (877199)
06-08-2020 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by jar
06-07-2020 3:16 PM


Re: A Beer Run For Jesus??
Phat writes:
Is Jesus a human creation?
jar writes:
If you mean any Jesus that anyone can discuss then Yes, Jesus is absolutely a human creation. All we can ever know about "Jesus" are the descriptions of the character Jesus in different stories written by humans, redacted by humans, marketed by humans. The whole reason the Gospel of John was written was to create a different Jesus than what had been created in the other Gospels.
I would argue that the reason that the Gospel of John was written was to describe more fully the traits of Jesus who was and is. John was the disciple closest to Jesus.
I believe that the Bible has value in its content because of the actual existence of Jesus Christ who predated the book. As John says, He was in the beginning. Long before any books were written or any mythos told through storytellers.
jar writes:
Yes, that is something you claim to believe. But to support that you use what? Answer: What is created in a book.
Acts 1 writes:
NIV
:1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
6 So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"
7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day's walk from the city. 13 When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. 14 They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.
15 In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16 and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as a guide for those who arrested Jesus- 17 he was one of our number and shared in this ministry."
18(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 "For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms,
"'May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,'

and,
"'May another take his place of leadership.'
Is this author creating a story or describing a story? Support can be made for either argument, but I feel that the author is describing a story that actually happened. Critics may say that the story was embellished, but that assumes ulterior motives for such a story to be written, to begin with.
Further, if I were simply eager to fit into a club of humans who imagined themselves enlightened and special...better than the rest of the unbelievers, I myself could be accused of having ulterior motives much as you claim the apologists all have. And to be honest, I will admit that in my critical study of the apologists done over the last 6 months, I have indeed seen some evidence that some of the apologists are marketing their version of the Bible and copying off others who do the same. You, on the other hand, claim only to report what has already been written in the book. Thus I SAY THAT You need the Holy Spirit and not simply logic, reason, and reality.
jar writes:
So you assert yet you never provide evidence or reasoning to support such a claim.
Evidence is what we as Christians DO. In this, I agree with what you have said--to a point. It seems that you think that all humans have a charge, duty, and ability to do what Jesus commanded us to do. Ringo agrees with you. I argue, on the other hand, that at least for me personally, I find it hard to love and serve the rejects of society. Granted I have prayed about it and feel more loving toward them than I did before, despite the fact that some of them steal from my employer, are addicted to drugs, and behave in an unsocially acceptable manner. However, Jesus loved them so why can't I?
I also charged you with claiming that Jesus saves everybody (like the warlord that Joe Wood mentioned many years ago) and ringo agrees, chiefly because he thinks that socialism is the best system for everybody. Faith was a staunch conservative capitalist, but her behavior and primarily hatred for the political Left seemed to me to be behavior that Jesus would never approve of. I too have whined about entitlement and fairness and being owed something that my generation is losing...and you point out that we all will make fine gardeners, cooks, and chauffers in a future world. In order to transcend this mindset, I cannot simply DO what Jesus commanded without what Paul described in Romans 12:
Rom 12:1-3 writes:
NIV
12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God-this is your spiritual act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is-his good, pleasing and perfect will.
3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
I had to have the measure of faith from God before I could even have the desire to suffer and humble myself before others (the least of these) and I argue that even though a liberal socialist may do the same with no need of a "measure of faith" unless perhaps they claim that they have faith in humanity, they would have such altruism in them without some humanist idealistic cause which is their "measure of faith". The protests of the recent weeks have shown some encouraging evolution of human understanding and empathy for the marginalized people such as George Floyd. I see George Floyds in my store all the time, some stealing, some passing counterfeit bills, and some simply honest men shopping, spending money, and providing for their families. Thus I see human nature and the full spectrum of good and evil present within us. I may have mentioned before that I believe we are in a war of ideologies, fight for equalities, and fear of privileges being eroded. Many want to move up, but those closer to the middle fear the competition and the idea that they may have to fight for what they once took for granted.
These are biblical themes.
The first will be last and the last will be first.
God opposes the proud but gives Grace to the humble.
To summarize, I believe that the book describes Jesus Christ but does not create Jesus Christ. It is the other way around. Jesus was at the very beginning of time.
jar writes:
I do not claim that God will save everyone but rather that if God really is the creator of all, seen and unseen and if there is something after life and if God will judge the fate of each person after their life it will be a judgment based on what they did during that life with the further possibility of forgiveness of such judgment by God.
You once put it better.
jar writes:
We will be judged by what we did and what we could have done and the judge will have perfect knowledge of both.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 06-07-2020 3:16 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 06-08-2020 9:19 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 253 of 794 (877219)
06-08-2020 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by jar
06-08-2020 9:19 AM


Re: A Beer Run For Jesus??
jar writes:
Again you approach the concept of GOD, God, god but never seem to really comprehend it.
Just as you don't comprehend the concept of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
You also do not believe what the Bible says or what the Nicene Creed says. You need to read both since they both tell the story of Jesus' creation.
I understand to an extent your understanding of it, but I see evidence that you believe very differently from the majority of Christians whom I have studied. You don't think that a person can be regenerated or changed...that they can remain as they are and simply do good works to get closer to God. Regeneration and good works go hand in hand.
Your beliefs are fine, anyone can hold whatever beliefs they want but as a Christian, it is a good idea not to contradict the basic documents of Faith or to at least admit that you are throwing away the basic documents of the Faith and creating something new.
I understand, but i also understand that you will argue that Paul and the author of the Gospel of John created something new. You can and have presented some evidence, but I do not believe that this scholarly dry and unanointed response is Christian so much as it is philosophical, worldly, and unspiritual. But we c an talk. Thats what we do here.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 06-08-2020 9:19 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by jar, posted 06-08-2020 3:28 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 255 of 794 (877286)
06-11-2020 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by jar
05-23-2020 1:16 PM


The Trinity Unplugged
jar writes:
You admit that you cannot support or explain or rationalize how you can know "... know exactly what it is that I have experienced and I have an inner peace and confirmation when I pray that confirms my communion with God individually at least." and yet your only statement is once again "I say that I disagree with what you teach or what I perceive as your teaching.", once again without any reasoning, rationalization or supporting arguments.
It takes time to research, confirm(through other scripture) challenge(using logic, reason, and reality) and in consideration of your arguments what the Bible says and means. You always mention context and claim that many Biblical Christians take the scriptures "pieces/parts out of context to "support their fantasy". I counter this with the idea that the context of the 66 books within our modern Bibles has a unified context--which is essentially this:
1) The Origin of Belief: Bronze Age Goat Herders Ponder The Stars
2)The Jewish People: A History Of An Evolving Belief
3)The Connection: GOD, God, and gods--And A Coming Messiah
4)The Birth, Life, Teaching, Death, And Resurrection Of Jesus Christ
5)The Further Teachings Attributed To The Apostle Paul And The Connections To Christianity As Marketed Today
To this, we are essentially competing in a forum in a marketplace of ideas. You have a well organized (yet in my opinion flawed) concept of human responsibility in light of logic, reason, and reality and confirmed through evidence and the scientific method.
I have an evolving belief originated through personal experience, awareness, and informal study and analysis of what others teach.
jar writes:
Almost every single god or God we can possibly name exists only because we have a written or oral record that contains a description of the character and nature of that god or God. Most are pretty specific and consistent. The various Gods mentioned in Vedas and other Hindu scripture each have specific defining characteristics and recognizable forms. The same is true of the Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Norse, Native American, Taoist, Buddhist religious deities and spirits.
But they all are mutually exclusive (with the possible exception of the Greek/Roman pantheon) and most everyone outside the particular religion readily acknowledges that all the others are simply human creations.
The outlier are the Hebraic religions. There we find no uniformity in the descriptions or characteristics of the God(s) and god(s) contained in the stories. In fact, we find mutually exclusive descriptions of the character called God throughout the writings.
In addition, as seen here at EvC even those who profess to be Christians cannot arrive at an adequate and acceptable description of the Christian God that can be supported by what is written in the stories without excluding almost all of the other aspects and characteristics found in the Bible stories.
The only way to allow the God of Genesis 1 and the God of Genesis 2&3 to be the same critter is to acknowledge that each description is the God as seen or imagined by one group of people at one time in history. In other words, the two Gods are each the creation of some author or authors within a particular mythos.
I would not even be interested in God as I understand Him were it not for experience. In fact, you once said that we are the sum of our experiences. I also freely admit that I have definite beliefs which exclude this whole inclusive description of various gods found in various beliefs scattered throughout the world and tucked in pockets of History. I take a stand on God as I know Him through Jesus Christ. This would not even be possible were the characters limited to books. (Unless one could successfully argue that I fully and completely make up the Gods I profess and market)
jar writes:
In addition, as seen here at EvC even those who profess to be Christians cannot arrive at an adequate and acceptable description of the Christian God that can be supported by what is written in the stories without excluding almost all of the other aspects and characteristics found in the Bible stories.
Granted. Humans never agree. One may think that were there but One GOD humans would unanimously agree to at least some extent yet evidence suggests we do not. This leads to a question: Why Not?
jar writes:
The Trinity is an invention of a time hundreds of years after Jesus, not something that existed at the time any of the Bible stories were written.
And yet the concept itself makes perfect sense in my mind. It explains:
1) A Creator Of All Seen And Unseen.
2)A Human Character Whom Humans Have An Opportunity To Connect With. (Be it through stories in the book, descriptions, and attempts to explain what it means for this character to be eternal in all of us(or those who do what the character in the book suggested)
3)A Presence Available To All--which you argue includes everybody and I argue is limited to those who believe and accept and understand.
Thus your argument is human-centric and inclusive while my argument is exclusive to "whosoever" and who has an ear(let him hear).
jar writes:
The Trinity is a human creation and has whatever meaning humans give it.
Back to SOURCE and CONTENT again. CONTENT without a source is human-centric. Stephen Hawking would be as valid of a prophet as Isaiah. I'm not buying it.
jar writes:
Yet Jesus Christ is only knowable as a character in stories written by humans.
So says you. How would the people even have known Him in the era when there were no books?

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by jar, posted 05-23-2020 1:16 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 256 of 794 (877287)
06-11-2020 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by jar
06-08-2020 3:28 PM


Re: What does the evidence show?
jar writes:
I never even mention anyone getting closer to God. In fact I say that is utterly irrelevant. I say we should simply try to do what we are charged to do. Not to get closer to God but because it is the right thing and what we were told to do. It is our duty.
Who Told Us? Who Initiated The Charge?

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by jar, posted 06-08-2020 3:28 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by jar, posted 06-11-2020 2:33 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 258 of 794 (877316)
06-12-2020 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by jar
06-11-2020 2:33 PM


Re: What does the evidence show?
I don't care what Christian "club" you claim membership in. You are a humanist. Christianity is Christ-centric Not Human-Centric. And Christ was at the beginning with God. No religion is "far older" than Him.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by jar, posted 06-11-2020 2:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by jar, posted 06-12-2020 8:13 AM Phat has replied
 Message 260 by ringo, posted 06-12-2020 10:19 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 261 of 794 (877320)
06-12-2020 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by ringo
06-12-2020 10:19 AM


Re: What does the evidence show?
How am I bleating? Scripture clearly tells us that Jesus was in the beginning and that through Him all things were created. This includes all of your precious evidence that exists, every story and idea told by humans through recorded history, every star, planet, and quark (or cat in a fridge) that any science mind ever conceived of.....EVERYTHING. You are free of course not to believe it. But lest you worry about us loons, we are doing what Jesus said to do. What irritates the secular mindset on earth is that we also tell them that Jesus is the only way. They would prefer we shut up, feed people quietly, and keep our beliefs to ourselves.
But surely the rocks would cry out.
Hope that everyone is safe and happy at the Library.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by ringo, posted 06-12-2020 10:19 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by ringo, posted 06-12-2020 4:47 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 262 of 794 (877321)
06-12-2020 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by jar
06-12-2020 8:13 AM


Re: What does the evidence show?
I am simply pointing out what is written.
Granted. I know you and know that you are not evil. You may be an unwitting tool of the enemy, however.
Do you want to know why?
(or at least my opinion as to why?)

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by jar, posted 06-12-2020 8:13 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by jar, posted 06-12-2020 3:39 PM Phat has replied

  
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