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Member (Idle past 505 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
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Author | Topic: When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I ASKED you: What does it MEAN to believe? Is it necessary to parrot Lord! Lord! or do you have to DO what He wanted?
Whosoever believes. Not simply whoever. Phat writes:
It doesn't say that He is the ONLY conduit. It says that He came to be A conduit.
that the world through him might be saved. Note: One must go through Him. Phat writes:
On the contrary, that's EXACTLY how Jesus said it works in Matthew 25. One cannot simply waltz through the door because they fed the homeless people..."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So why is there no evidence of a "changed life"? Why is it that prisons are full of believers?
It means having a changed life. Phat writes:
I'm not asking you to blather the same old same old bumper-sticker slogans. I'm asking you to THINK. Actually compose a sentence of your own for once.
It is not about religion, but it IS about Jesus. Jesus Christ is Gods character. There is but ONE God. Phat writes:
I haven't said that. YOU said that. YOU claim that Jesus never said it. YOU claim it isn't practical, even though the Roman church apparently did it.
You kept saying I never did what Jesus said so it challenged me to do it more often. Phat writes:
I didn't say anything about "communion" with God. That's a silly idea. So you are claiming that Jesus is simply one of many paths to communion with God, Creator of all seen and unseen? I'm just pointing out what the gospel of John actually SAYS.
Phat writes:
But you never do argue. You just assert. Is that because there is no actual argument?
You claim that His message is more important than He is, but I would argue that He is as important as His Word. Phat writes:
He says that no man comes to the Father but by "the way". Does He not say that no man comes to the Father but by me? What is the way? He was explicit about that. "What must I do to be saved?" "Sell what you have and give to the poor." The Roman church apparently did that. He was also expliicit about how "all nations" will be judged - by what we do for the least of His brethern.
Phat writes:
You're making that up. Matthew 25 says nothing of the kind. They did the right thing BEFORE they ever even heard about Jesus - so Jesus CAN NOT have been a conduit for them.
My argument, however, is that Jesus exists eternally and will at somee point meet these followers of His message who do it rather than ignore it and they WILL become transformed. Phat writes:
Again, Matthew 25 says nothing of the kind. It's all lies made up by apologists to fit their made-up scenario. They will realize that Jesus is real. That He lives eternally. And that He is the Head and they are part of His body."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You didn't answer the question. Why is there no evidence of the supposed "changed lives".
It is not just prisons that are full of believers. Believers are a minority yet they are everywhere. Phat writes:
And you never have any counter to that point. See above. Why are the people who think the messenger is important not better people than the ones who don't.
... you always say that the messenger is unimportant and that the message is all that is important. Phat writes:
Socialism is no more athesitic than science is. What good is atheistic socialism? Socialism is good because we are a social species. We do better when we help each other. You're supposed to have learned that in kindergarten.
Phat writes:
What more is there?
If you throw God away and compare Jesus to an amalgamation of an Elmer Gantry type character, all you are doing is altruistic socialism. Phat writes:
See above. You're NOT changed. You're NOT transformed. You NEED to change to become MORE socialist, not less. Your messenger-worship is a millstone that's holding you back.
I wont put up with a world full of people who defiantly defend their right to be as they are--unchanged, untransformed, and proud of it. Phat writes:
You've been told many times. Isn't it silly for you to have communion with a bacterium?
Why is it silly? Phat writes:
I will get on your case. You're not even really agreeing with them. You're just parroting them. If you had put any thought into it, you'd be able to discuss their arguments but you never do.
But dont get on my case for agreeing with the apologists. Phat writes:
Because they're wrong.
Why should I switch sides and agree with you? Phat writes:
Yes. Why can't you make an argument against that position instead of just scoffing at it?
You claim that the messenger is unimportant and jar advocates throwing Him away! Phat writes:
If there is an argument, MAKE IT.
There is, but you will claim that I dont have an original thought and simply parrot the apologists. Phat writes:
So tell us what you see.
You are right and yet you are not seeing what I see. Phat writes:
Because they're lying. See Genesis 3.
Why are you guys so hard on the apologists? Why do accuse them of lying? Phat writes:
That's s lie that the apologists have told you. Unless you have an argument to back up what they say, you have no business believing them. Perhaps you dont understand that God cannot lie and that satan is the father of lies."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
This is a privately-owned website. Freedom of speech doesn't apply here.
I believe in freedom of speech. Phat writes:
I'm not an ideologue, nor do I know of anybody who is a "secular humanist ideologue". Ideologies are for lazy thinkers. One of these days, the secular humanist ideologues... On the other hand, many believers are ideologues.
Phat writes:
The rules of the site prohibit preaching. I, for one, wish you would answer your posts thoughtfully instead of just parroting your ideology.
... will attempt to shut down preaching ... Phat writes:
I don't know of anybody who thinks that. Rational thinking can only be harmed if you teach children to think ideologically instead of rationally.
... because they will claim it can cause harm to rationally minded thinking. Phat writes:
Feel free to demonstrate some rational thinking. As if they have any sort of monopoly on that!"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So why don't you do that? It is important for you to examine your worldview and test it as if you were opposed to it."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Better look up what tangible means. Might as well look up inaudible, tasteless and odorless while you're at it. All of the senses can be tested. What if it was not visible yet was distinctly tangible? How do we test for that?"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Comment: Your theology just gets stupider and stupider. My argument is that He chooses to limit His knowledge to be in lockstep with our human development over time, for the lifespan of each one of us uniquely. Comments?"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But that would be false. I could just as easily say that you dont understand reality.... And it isn't rude to call an idea stupid. The god you market is so obviously made up, you spit on the Bible, you worship apologists without a moment of thought about what they're saying.... AND you're afraid to defend anything you say. "Stupid" is one of the politest things I can think of to say about your theology. "I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Stop lying. I have told you many times that I have experienced what you have.
You've just never experienced a spiritual epiphany.... Phat writes:
1. Why is "free will" so all-fired important to you? I would argue that the only way that humans could ever truly have free will is through being offered a choice between Gods authority... 2. How the hell is bowing to authority "free will"?
Phat writes:
The snake told the truth. ... and the lie of autonomy provided by the sneaky snake. You can not escape that by throwing out the book. If you believe in the snake, you have to accept what the book says about him.
Phat writes:
How many times do I have to point out that there is no transformation?
Allowing everybody into heaven regardless of their transformation? Phat writes:
You're preaching an ugly, disgusting, evil, exclusive lie. You should be ashamed of connecting your lies to Jesus. That inclusive belief is pathetic and a lie from satan."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And you can not claim that somebody else has not experienced what you have experienced.
You cant simply take two believers and claim that they both experienced the same things. Phat writes:
By it seems to be the entire premise of your theology. In Message 392 you said, "I would argue that the only way that humans could ever truly have free will is through being offered a choice between Gods authority and the lie of autonomy provided by the sneaky snake." So forget free will. Explain your theology without any mention of free will.
ringo writes:
I never said it was. Why is "free will" so all-fired important to you? Phat writes:
That doesn't answer the question. It doesn't even have anything to do with the question. ringo writes:
It is surrendering to the fact that God is good. How the hell is bowing to authority "free will"? It isn't about God at all. It's about you. How can unconditional obedience involve free will?
Phat writes:
So take it or leave it. That isn't free will.
Bow willfully now or forcefully later. Phat writes:
Then it isn't free will. In fact, in your scenario, God has to actively prevent me from succeeding.
All that your free will wont do is allow you to escape what you claim is ignorance and create a brave new secular world which itself will succeed. Phat writes:
You're rejecting the truth and embracing a lie. That is not good theology. I do not believe in the snake. I think at some level you know it's a lie, otherwise you wouldn't be so afraid of discussing it.
Phat writes:
I didn't say a word about what Romans claims. I said there IS no transformation. I can see that in your life. If Romans claims there is a magical transformation, Romans is wrong.
ringo writes:
Romans 12:1 clearly says that there is. How many times do I have to point out that there is no transformation? Phat writes:
Of course not. I point out what the book says. Much of what it says is not true but it still says what it says.
Are you also now throwing out the book? Phat writes:
He certainly was, as the Bible clearly shows - and you're afraid to discuss that too. Jesus is not a human socialist."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That doesn't answer the question. They might have been obedient slaves or they might have been discontented slaves who were afraid of the consequences of rebellion. There is no reason to think they had "free will" or to think they used it if they had it. ringo writes:
Get your mythos straight. 2/3 of the angels chose NOT to rebel. That is free will in action. How can unconditional obedience involve free will?"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If they walk like a slave and talk like a slave.... So there is no reason to think that they were not slaves? Surely your logic puzzles us. Show YOUR logic."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Again, why not?
Why is it as logical to believe that Angels are zombies over the idea that Angels had and have Free Will? Phat writes:
Why would He need to create rebels?
Why would God need to create zombies? Phat writes:
But you need to explain the ones who "chose" slavery, not just the ones who chose freedom.
And the apologetic argument is as good of one as any...that Lucifer chose autonomy over authority. That is not an action a zombie would make. Phat writes:
I don't think it's plausible at all. How many people would choose slavery if it was actually a choice. That is the argument that slavers used to use ("Slavery is fun! They like it!) but it doesn't fly very high in the face of reality.
It is equally plausible that 2/3 of the Angels chose Authority. They happened to like existing as servants for their Boss. Phat writes:
Why?
but then it becomes your turn to replace my hypothetical and not by saying we simply live, do our best for each other and die...turning to worm food and ceasing to exist. That hypothetical is less likely. Phat writes:
By that logic, they also know too much and have seen too much to be Christians. Christianity, especially your right-wing-nutty cult, is very much a minority. Humans know and have seen too much to be atheistic materialists as a species. But practically every religion DOES believe in doing our best for each other, so clearly your assessment of "plausibility" is way off."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
See the story of the prodigal son. He was disobedient but his father didn't kick him out of heaven. He welcomed him home. Doesn't that sound inclusive to you? The first mistake you make (and its huge) is to equate obedience to God with slavery. When the Prince of Peace is your Boss, you are not a slave but a son. Sorry, try again.
Phat writes:
By definition, yes.
You seem to think freedom is being able to do whatever you want. Phat writes:
That's not a lie. Which is fine if you believe the lie that the universe is simply some vast frontier awaiting discovery."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I mentioned the prodigal son to show that you're wrong about God treating the angels as sons. Prodigal Angels? Maybe...thats a strange concept which I wont deny nor embrace."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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