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Member (Idle past 478 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
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Author | Topic: When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Let me ask you this: Do you read my posts at all? Because I have answered that question several times in several threads. Let me ask you this: If Jesus were running the place, would everyone have to sell all that they have in order to get in? Jesus was pretty clear: It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. What must you do to be saved? Sell what you have and give to the poor. He didn't mention any exceptions. The disciples believed Him. The widow with two mites believed Him. (Even the Old Testament widow who fed Elijah believed the message before He was born.) The early church believed Him. Etc. Why don't you believe Him? And why do you keep asking the same inane question when the answer will always be the same? Write it down if you can't remember it. Embroider it on a pillow."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I'm not "pinning" anything on God. The Bible says explicitly that God created evil. Even you say that God created all things seen and unseen. That includes evil. There's just no way around it.
You always seem eager to pin the bad stuff on God... Phat writes:
The "fallen angel" is not reality. It's made up. ... and ignore the presence of a fallen angel who in reality caused us to doubt and mistrust God and each other. And it has nothing to do with doubting God or mistrusting God.
Phat writes:
That's because you're not thinking.
... putting the Creator of all seen and unseen on trial if even one of His precious little creations ends up damned seems weird to me. Phat writes:
Satan was not "allowed to exist". God created Satan. And God tells Satan what to do (see Job).
Satan was allowed to exist in order to test our hearts and souls. Phat writes:
But it's relevant to Him. If he knows evil will happen and does nothing to prevent it, He is evil. There's no getting around that. God's foreknowledge is unknown and thus irrelevant to us."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
There is no need for Jesus. There is need for the message - but people like you keep fighting it. One thing also....there would be no need for Jesus since there would be nothing that needed to be fixed."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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dwise1 writes:
My dad was a fundamentalist Christian and I think he believed in a literal Hell - but he also said that we create our own heaven and hell on earth. ... non-issues like Hell that we don't even believe to exist (except as metaphors)...."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Of course He is. Remember the Father/son relationship? What you guys don't understand is that God is under no obligation to save human lives."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's what Jesus said.
So does this mean that in your eyes, people such as myself should, if we claim to be Christian, suck it up and pay the bill? Phat writes:
Jesus said that YOU should pass the world by.
Even if the world passes us by? Phat writes:
Don't aggrandize yourself. Jesus portrayed you in the pigsty begging for a corn cob.
Even if we become the Butlers, Gardeners, and Servants of other cultures? Phat writes:
Yup.
If so, that is a hard teaching. Phat writes:
No. I don't advocate any such thing. I simply point out that Jesus advocated exactly that.
Ringo even takes it a step farther and declares that anyone who claims to be a Christianshould essentially sell all that they have in order to help a world where most do not believe in Jesus. Phat writes:
Yup. It's the straight and narrow way. That is hard teaching!!"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The early church did it. (Note that Ananias and Sapphira were killed for not doing it.) The disciples did it, the lady with two mites did it, the widow who fed Elijah did it. And even if those are made-up stories, we have historical evidence that monastic groups (of various religions) do it to this day.
Ringo has argued otherwise, saying that the early church did it. Phat writes:
What? That's exactly what I'm doing, pointing out that the modern church is spoiled, ruined by apologetics. Since when is being spoiled an excuse for anything?
He fails to see how spoiled the modern church is, however. Phat writes:
No, you've never been able to argue that. You've made an assertion with no rationale whatsoever.
Though I would argue that Jesus told the rich young ruler something specific to his problem with priorities.... Phat writes:
I don't say you "should" follow it. I say you would follow it if your "belief" in Jesus had any substance. My gripe with ringo is that he exempts himself from the charge that he claims I should follow. And yes, of course I am exempt from following the instructions of somebody who doesn't exist. That's obvious. I don't know why you keep bringing it up.
Phat writes:
As everybody is trying to tell you, the apologists are dead wrong. Their story isn't even self-consistent.
If Jesus is real and is who the apologists say He is... Phat writes:
Again, that's just nonsense. You don't follow the instructions of people you don't believe in. Why should everybody else? ... everyone should follow His commands...not just believers."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Confirmation bias.
The more I think about it the more I think your conclusion is (possibly) wrong. Phat writes:
Those questions are irrelevant. The question YOU need to answer is, "Did God dig the tiger trap?" Did God give each and every human ever born the opportunity and means to repent?Did God offer a solution for what some CCoI refer to as original sin? "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You're conflating two different things. Nobody is asking you to give up everything you have to pay off the national debt. The national debt has nothing to do with what Jesus told you to do. The only way that I would give up all that I had in order to pay a huge bill that the Federal Reserve and my own government create and inflate every day is if Jesus Himself told me that giving everything up was how this bill would be repaid."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
As I've asked you before, How could there be different standards for salvation? Why would the rich young ruler have to give it all up but Phat gets to keep enough to live in comfort? Evidently, you think that when Jesus talks about what He tells one individual to do, it applies to all of us. And note that in Matthew 25, all nations - i.e. everybody - is judged according to what they did for the least of these. Equal judgement, not preferred judgement for Phat.
Phat writes:
He portrays you as one who says, "Lord! Lord!" - i.e. one He never knew.
So how many other ways does Jesus portray me? Phat writes:
Anybody who has anything to sell is.
Am I a rich young ruler who needs to sell all I have? Phat writes:
You would be if you trusted Jesus and did what He said to do.
Or am I a destitute son with no money ... Phat writes:
You're misusing the parable. The prodigal son didn't go home because he missed the life he had. He didn't expect to get that life back. He went home because it was his last resort. He hoped his father wouldn't watch him die. ... who misses the life he had at his Fathers house?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You're contradicting Jesus. ...I would imagine that we will be judged not only on what we *do* vs what we could have done but on our honesty regarding our beliefs...."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Yes.
Is it a sin to love my family and close friends and perhaps my country before I start loving everyone in S.America or Africa? Phat writes:
I thought you were the one who said that basic human nature is sinful. Is that not basic human nature?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You're being dishonest. You just said two posts ago that: God is no more Catholic than He is Protestant or Buddhist.quote: Which is it? Is God relatively Catholic or not?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jar writes:
Fun fact: the church that I grew up in calls itself the Apostolic Church of Pentecost. It was pretty anti-Roman-Catholic then; I don't know about today. ... one holy catholic and apostolic Church;"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You need to back that up. As long as they keep the inclusivism within Christianity-at-large they will do fine, but when they try and synergize all religions as one, they step out of bounds."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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