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Author
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Topic: When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 449 of 794 (882411)
09-21-2020 5:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 447 by FLRW
09-21-2020 3:35 PM
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Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
FLRW writes: Now let me introduce you to a problem presented by the famous philosopher Epicurus, There's really no need, it's been done to death here for a dozen years or more. The religionists have no answer, but it makes no difference to their belief. Belief is impervious to logic. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 447 by FLRW, posted 09-21-2020 3:35 PM | | FLRW has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 451 by Phat, posted 09-23-2020 2:29 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 452 of 794 (882425)
09-23-2020 6:42 AM
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Reply to: Message 451 by Phat
09-23-2020 2:29 AM
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Re: Let It Go, Phat! Do Something Useful For Yourself
Phat writes: Not everything is logical. Philosophical arguments are logical or they're nothing. The problem of suffering is a logical argument that you - or any other religionist - has no answer to. You can not explain why a god that loves you also tortures you both in this life and potentially in the next. But, as I say, your beliefs are not rational so why let a little paradox like that worry you? Your beliefs are not founded on reason so it is unlikely that reason will change your mind.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 451 by Phat, posted 09-23-2020 2:29 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 464 of 794 (886662)
05-29-2021 4:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 463 by Phat
05-29-2021 3:25 PM
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Re: Ringos Only Standard. The BIG E
Phat writes: I think that our budding Pastor, Raphael, has a lot of love for the rest of society that does not attend any church. You're going to be really obsequious with your new guru aren't you?
I DO think that religion and spirituality are here to stay as our planet and our global population moves into a critical time and challenge. Doom doom!
If times get tough,
Doom!
It is in my opinion inevitable. Just wishful thinking Phat.
more people will turn to religion during the lean times. Except exactly the opposite is happening. I'm sure you guys prayed for deliverance from the virus but it was the vaccine that is doing the job. I'm afraid like all your apocalyptical dreams it ain't going to happen. Just like Faith you're desperate for it aren't you? Begging for it. Why Phat? You're going to wet yourself talking to your new apologist.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 463 by Phat, posted 05-29-2021 3:25 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 465 by Phat, posted 05-31-2021 11:46 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 466 of 794 (886693)
05-31-2021 2:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 465 by Phat
05-31-2021 11:46 AM
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Re: Ringos Only Standard. The BIG E
Phat writes: I think that *you* think that I will treat Raphael the same way I responded to ICANT For once you're right. Please prove me wrong - try not to genuflect.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 465 by Phat, posted 05-31-2021 11:46 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 468 of 794 (887361)
08-01-2021 10:09 AM
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Reply to: Message 467 by candle2
08-01-2021 9:53 AM
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Re: Let It Go, Phat! Do Something Useful For Yourself
Candle writes: This is simply an evolution vs. creation issue. The observable science actually supports creation. So how come it was creationists that confirmed evolution as fact?
Evolution does nothing for science, and science
does nothing for evolution.
Have you got that written on your bumper?
It is observable science (since recorded history) that
an animal will have offsprings of the same kind. The
same goes for humans. Human mothers will always
have human babies. Yes, that's what science tells us.
Professors cannot give an observable example where
one animal evolved (macro) into an entirely different
kind of animal. Do you think they should be able to? If so why?
You are free to believe in your fairy tale, if you wish, but
that is called blind faith, not science. I gave up my belief in fairy tales and blind faith when I was still a child. And the reason had nothing to do with evolution - which I'd never heard of. The reason was because it became clear that faith is indoctrinated bullshit.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 467 by candle2, posted 08-01-2021 9:53 AM | | candle2 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 471 by candle2, posted 08-01-2021 10:47 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 474 of 794 (887371)
08-01-2021 11:37 AM
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Reply to: Message 471 by candle2
08-01-2021 10:47 AM
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Re: Let It Go, Phat! Do Something Useful For Yourself
candle writes: Animals and humans produce their own kind. Science does not disagree with you. I don't think you understand what you're disagreeing with.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 471 by candle2, posted 08-01-2021 10:47 AM | | candle2 has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 497 of 794 (887408)
08-02-2021 11:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 489 by candle2
08-02-2021 9:26 AM
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candle writes: Bicycles have as much of a chance of reproducing as a human mother has of giving birth to a crow. And yet again you have complete agreement from science. I wonder what you think evolution is?
In any event, couldn't a bicycle evolve into a
Harley if we allowed it tens of millions of years
to do so? It actually took about 100 years.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 489 by candle2, posted 08-02-2021 9:26 AM | | candle2 has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 498 by dwise1, posted 08-02-2021 12:41 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 520 of 794 (887841)
08-23-2021 3:16 AM
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Reply to: Message 517 by Phat
08-23-2021 2:32 AM
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Re: Gods responsibility for everything and the judgement of such
Phat writes: So are you hypothetically suggesting that the only proper thing for a God to do is create a people who will all succeed? Why would a loving god make it any other way? That is apparently what he originally intended remember. Garden of Eden etc.
Protecting people from exposure (and overdose of) evil is akin to bubble boy....who is vulnerable to all viruses having lived in a sterile environment. Why would a loving god introduce a virus into paradise? Is Heaven a 'sterile environment'? It seems to me that your god is either stupid or evil or both.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 517 by Phat, posted 08-23-2021 2:32 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 556 of 794 (887930)
08-26-2021 3:21 AM
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Phat, you can't escape logic by inventing what you call hypotheticals. If your god is all knowing and the creator of everything then he created evil and knew its consequences. Can you accept that or not?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 560 by Phat, posted 08-26-2021 11:29 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 562 of 794 (887940)
08-26-2021 11:51 AM
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Reply to: Message 560 by Phat
08-26-2021 11:29 AM
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Phat writes: If God had never created either the possibility or actuality of evil, what then would have been the consequence for His people? For one thing, we never would have understood nor even invented movies such as Star Wars. For another, this world would still be jam-packed full of people...since procreation is good. I'm not sure what else would be different, but the imagination runs wild at the possibilities. One thing also....there would be no need for Jesus since there would be nothing that needed to be fixed. Ok so that was a 'yes' wasn't it?
What do you propose as your solution? The solution was not to create the problem. If we accept that your god exists then the solution was either to not create or do what your book says he originally intended and make a Paradise, just leave out the bloody snake. He's God remember. Alternatively just have heaven, why not?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 560 by Phat, posted 08-26-2021 11:29 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 571 of 794 (887951)
08-27-2021 12:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 569 by Phat
08-27-2021 12:12 PM
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes: What you guys don't understand is that God is under no obligation to save human lives. And what you don't understand is that that is not the issue - of course a god can do anything he likes, he's a god. But *your* god can't - he's a loving god according to you. A god that condemn the vast majority of humanity to everlasting torture is evil. You can only defeat logic with better logic, nothing you've said so far is even rational. Do you have anything vaguely rational to say? If not, just declare it a mystery and we're done. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 569 by Phat, posted 08-27-2021 12:12 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 576 of 794 (887959)
08-27-2021 5:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 574 by Phat
08-27-2021 4:26 PM
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes: You can dismiss it all as a goat herder story but you cant argue that God is evil. Several of us have done just that and you've failed to find a single coherent argument otherwise. You're lost try google.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 574 by Phat, posted 08-27-2021 4:26 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 592 of 794 (887978)
08-28-2021 10:44 AM
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Reply to: Message 585 by Phat
08-28-2021 9:10 AM
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes: The individual makes their choice. [...] The fact that God could know that destination in no way means that God was evil for foreknowing their damnation. The fact is, they had a clear choice and they lived it. Can you explain how the billions of people that were born before Christianity was invented had a choice? According to you, they are in hell. As are all those billions born in non-Christian countries. Where's the choice Phat? How does that work? Is it the work of a loving father?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 585 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 9:10 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 596 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 11:43 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 601 of 794 (887987)
08-28-2021 2:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 596 by Phat
08-28-2021 11:43 AM
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes: Humans have a choice. The ones who die suddenly without having known of a choice will not end up damned. Pick 'n Mix Christianity eh? It's called the Fate of the Unlearned. Depending on which random version of Christianity you grew up in you're either damned or you have a chance. Fate of the unlearned - Wikipedia The largest cult - Catholics - have people damned unless baptised Catholic but there are some slippery get-out clauses. If God is Catholic I think it could go either way for you Phat. Are you a betting man? Whereas I, an atheist, am baptised Catholic so I reckon I have as much chance as you. This religion stuff is complicated isn't it? Need a damn (?) good lawyer. Because you guys just make up the rules as you go along, you can have whichever version suits you.
Gods only crime, even given that the fallen angels exist, is in setting hell up. Sounds like you think it a minor slip. Hitler's only mistake was gassing a million Jews! Oops!
Some could argue that God should have been nicey nice towards everything He created!!! er, yes... (are you completely mad?)
So should we blame God for allowing guns to exist? How about Nuclear weapons? Of course! He's the creator of all things is he not?
After all, if He were a loving character we wouldn't even have to hunt for our food. Do they hunt in Heaven? Did they in Paradise? Why is it necessary for animals to kill other animals to survive? Was this the best your small god could do?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 596 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 11:43 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 606 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 10:36 PM | | Tangle has not replied | | | Message 613 by Percy, posted 08-29-2021 11:44 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 609 of 794 (887999)
08-29-2021 3:17 AM
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I wonder why we bother? Phat can't see the argument so can't answer it, yet we keep trying. I reckon we're as daft as him.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 610 by jar, posted 08-29-2021 7:21 AM | | Tangle has not replied | | | Message 612 by Phat, posted 08-29-2021 11:36 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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