Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 81 (8972 total)
178 online now:
DrJones* (1 member, 177 visitors)
Newest Member: Howyoudo
Post Volume: Total: 875,411 Year: 7,159/23,288 Month: 1,065/1,214 Week: 77/303 Day: 38/39 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 151 of 190 (876458)
05-20-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
06-23-2004 5:57 PM


Re: no vagueness
jar writes:

One clear fact about Biblical prophesies is that for over 5000 years, every time one has been proven wrong, divine re-interpretation has shown that it referred to something else entirely anyway.

Another clear fact is that there has consistently been a concerted effort to *prove* them wrong. Why is it that throughout history (and I don't have stats on this but stand by it) the Bible and Jesus Christ have been challenged and attacked more than any other man or any other religious book....as if the whole motive is to expose Jesus as fallible and the Bible as an edited and redacted product of men. If you can strip the Divinity out of Jesus(which you cant) and out of the Bible, you have reduced the very Creator of the Universe into an unknowable concept and a character in many books.

If you teach people to throw Him away, you will be judged for this at some point in your future. God is our judge and will have perfect knowledge of all we do and could have done.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 06-23-2004 5:57 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by jar, posted 05-20-2020 12:26 PM Phat has responded
 Message 155 by ringo, posted 05-21-2020 11:54 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 152 of 190 (876459)
05-20-2020 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Phat
05-20-2020 12:13 PM


Re: no vagueness
Phat writes:

If you teach people to throw Him away, you will be judged for this at some point in your future. God is our judge and will have perfect knowledge of all we do and could have done.

Hopefully, both of those things are true.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Phat, posted 05-20-2020 12:13 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Phat, posted 05-20-2020 4:55 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 153 of 190 (876473)
05-20-2020 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by jar
05-20-2020 12:26 PM


Re: no vagueness
Both of what things? What two specific points are you hoping will be true?

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by jar, posted 05-20-2020 12:26 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by jar, posted 05-20-2020 5:21 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 154 of 190 (876474)
05-20-2020 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Phat
05-20-2020 4:55 PM


Re: no vagueness
Phat writes:

If you teach people to throw Him away, you will be judged for this at some point in your future.

I hope that I can teach folk to throw all the God(s) and god(s) away and that I will be judged for that at some point in my future.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Phat, posted 05-20-2020 4:55 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Phat, posted 05-21-2020 12:15 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18100
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 155 of 190 (876495)
05-21-2020 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Phat
05-20-2020 12:13 PM


Re: no vagueness
Phat writes:

Why is it that throughout history (and I don't have stats on this but stand by it) the Bible and Jesus Christ have been challenged and attacked more than any other man or any other religious book....


You don't have stats on it because it's bullshit.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Phat, posted 05-20-2020 12:13 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Phat, posted 05-21-2020 12:21 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 156 of 190 (876501)
05-21-2020 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by jar
05-20-2020 5:21 PM


Re: no vagueness
jar writes:

And so once again you simply fall back on misrepresenting my position.
Why is that so common throughout your long history of posts?

In any debate, each side seeks to frame the argument. In so doing, they often quote each other and are usually accused by their opponent of quoting out of context or misrepresenting the opponent's position, at which point the opponent stands up and restates his position while dismissing his opponent's position. Its what debates and discussions are all about. Thus as I quote you, the audience will see my line of reasoning and how I use your quotes. Let them decide if I am misrepresenting your position or whether you are simply frustrated that the argument is not framed according to your liking or preference.
jar writes:

I ask to be taught how anyone can actually know God while still alive and point out that all the evidence is that not one of those who claim to know God ever provide any answer; and that the reality is that every God ever mentioned is simply the creation of a human mind.

Are you thus saying that a GOD is incapable of communing with humanity in any way shape or form and giving us a smidgeon of an idea about His character?
jar writes:

I hope that I can teach folk to throw all the God(s) and god(s) away and that I will be judged for that at some point in my future.

Yet you claim to have actually read the Bible. Does the book (or books) tell us to throw God away?

Why does Jesus say the following two things (among others) to His Disciples:
1)

Matt 10:38-41 writes:

NKJV And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it. "He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.

Is Jesus suggesting that He teaches not in His own name but in the name of the One who sent Him? Shall we throw that one away? It appears that the thing we are to throw away is our own life rather than Him or God. If jar teaches in the name of logic, reason, and reality is that not simply jar teaching in his own understanding?

And again note the exchange with Peter.

Matt 16:13-23 writes:

When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
14 So they said,"Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.

22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!"

23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."


If we throw God away, how can we be mindful of the things of God? If we walk in logic, reason, and reality (as we objectively measure it) and place God in a box along with Ganesh, loki, and the Teletubbies, how can we be mindful of the things of God without declaring that we ourselves are all the "god" that will ever be?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by jar, posted 05-20-2020 5:21 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by jar, posted 05-21-2020 1:09 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 157 of 190 (876502)
05-21-2020 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by ringo
05-21-2020 11:54 AM


Re: no vagueness
And you have no stats to back up your position either. Saying that something is bullshit is a positive truth claim. You have simply decided that your "belief" is objective evidence and that the opposing positions have none. You basically teach that the characters in the book are limited to the book, pointing out the "obvious objective reality" of your claim.

The Word was the word long before the Torah or the KJV were even written....indeed long before humans could conceive of writing.

Can you prove to me that what I just said is BS?


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by ringo, posted 05-21-2020 11:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by ringo, posted 05-21-2020 12:33 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18100
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 158 of 190 (876506)
05-21-2020 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Phat
05-21-2020 12:21 PM


Re: no vagueness
Phat writes:

And you have no stats to back up your position either.


I haven't stated any position.

Phat writes:

Saying that something is bullshit is a positive truth claim.


No it isn't. It's exactly the opposite. It's a lack-of-truth claim.

Lack of truth is the default. Nothing is true until shown to be true.

Phat writes:

You have simply decided that your "belief" is objective evidence and that the opposing positions have none.


Not at all. I'm simply pointing out that YOUR position has no substance.

Phat writes:

You basically teach that the characters in the book are limited to the book....


That has NOTHING to do with what we're talking about here. We're talking about your claim that Christians are persecuted more than anybody else.

Phat writes:

The Word was the word long before the Torah or the KJV were even written....


More bullshit.

Phat writes:

Can you prove to me that what I just said is BS?


See above. I don't need to prove that there's no Loch Ness Monster. You need to prove that there is one.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Phat, posted 05-21-2020 12:21 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 159 of 190 (876509)
05-21-2020 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Phat
05-21-2020 12:15 PM


Re: no vagueness
Phat writes:

Are you thus saying that a GOD is incapable of communing with humanity in any way shape or form and giving us a smidgeon of an idea about His character?

You really can't read or comprehend anything can you?

The issue is not God but humans Phat. We have covered this very point a Brazillion times yet you never seem to learn or refuse to learn.

the question is "How can humans know they are communing with God?"

Stop playing "STUPIDO" Phat.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Phat, posted 05-21-2020 12:15 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Phat, posted 05-21-2020 3:01 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 160 of 190 (876516)
05-21-2020 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by jar
05-21-2020 1:09 PM


Re: no vagueness
And yet again you reframe the issue and totally ignore my questions.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by jar, posted 05-21-2020 1:09 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by jar, posted 05-21-2020 3:49 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 161 of 190 (876520)
05-21-2020 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Phat
05-21-2020 3:01 PM


Re: no vagueness
What ignored question did you ask that in anyway relates to anything I have ever said?

Edited by jar, : No reason given.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Phat, posted 05-21-2020 3:01 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 05-22-2020 4:08 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 162 of 190 (876569)
05-22-2020 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by jar
05-21-2020 3:49 PM


Re: no vagueness
What ignored question did you ask that in any way relates to anything I have ever said?
Specifically? There are not because my questions become judged within the framework of your belief.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by jar, posted 05-21-2020 3:49 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by jar, posted 05-22-2020 5:54 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 163 of 190 (876575)
05-22-2020 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Phat
05-22-2020 4:08 PM


Re: no vagueness
What ignored question did you ask that in anyway relates to anything I have ever said?

To what ignored questions that can even be remotely connected to the topic do you want me to respond?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 05-22-2020 4:08 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Phat, posted 05-23-2020 10:36 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 164 of 190 (876580)
05-23-2020 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by jar
05-22-2020 5:54 PM


JarThink
, *sigh*

Let me attempt to break down my overall thought process regarding these issues....please dont clutter it up by accusing me of one of many common memes, namely:
1) Word Salad
2) "Biblical Christian Fantasies
3) Misrepresenting Your Position (which I think I somewhat understand)
Are we clear?

Phats Position. GOD exists. GOD is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ lives in me, though there is basically no way I can prove this belief to the satisfaction of any of the many arguments which at least you, I, and perhaps ringo engage in at EvC for the past 15 years or so. I was attempting to use scripture to back up my position. I have found over the years that you never seem to understand or represent my position in our many arguments but, rather, lump me in a category with "carny hucksters, Biblical Christians, and Apologists...at best. At worst you would never seem to grasp my position, choosing instead to dismiss it as word salad. Do you have any idea how insulting that is?

Jars Position: (Gathered from prior quotes which you have made)

The issue is not God but humans Phat. We have covered this very point a Brazillion times yet you never seem to learn or refuse to learn.
the question is "How can humans know they are communing with God?"

You claim that I never can provide an answer. And dont label me as stupido. I know exactly what it is that I have experienced and I have an inner peace and confirmation when I pray that confirms my communion with God individually at least. To attempt to explain it or teach it corporately is another matter. In fact, I think I have stopped teaching it among people I know here in town and rather showing it through my actions and personality. As for you guys at the Forum, I struggle to make my points and frame the issue. Sometimes I think I waste too much time her, but our arguments serve a purpose in that they challenge my beliefs and allow me to think outside the apologetic box. Not that I feel comfortable doing that. You say I refuse to learn. I say that I disagree with what you teach or what I perceive as your teaching.

jar writes:

I ask to be taught how anyone can actually know God while still alive and point out that all the evidence is that not one of those who claim to know God ever provide any answer; and that the reality is that every God ever mentioned is simply the creation of a human mind.

I try to teach that behavior is more productive than belief and that behavior can be tested and verified while belief cannot.

And I can agree with this. I cant teach people what to believe (some say I shouldnt even try) but I can show them how to behave.

What gets me about the EvC arguments is the claim that God is simply a character in a book and that the book is (or was) authored,edited, redacted and taught by men and men alone.

Im trying to use the book itself to show otherwise, but in this instance I run up against logic, reason, and reality. My opponents demand evidence, which I dont have apart from my behavior towards them(you,ringo,tangle,etc etc) so here we are.

Then, for EvC context, lets throw in the decades long arguments which you(seemingly the rest of EvC who are either atheists, secular humanists, or Episcopalian Curmudgeons ) had with our suspended member Faith. I will say publically that Faith was intelligent yet very stubborn and dogmatic. She claimed to be a believer yet would not even listen to or argue with me...she always thought she knew better, but I was unconvinced. GDR was more of a wise Christian, and I recently watched a video he sent me with NT Wright which further nourished my world view. GDR is an example of a commu8nal and cooperative Christian in that we can disagree and yet remain agreeable as to the central focus which we share which is Jesus Christ. Faith never could do that as her issue was Faiths proclamation that what she represented was the proper teaching---end of argument. She refused to even consider the evidence based arguments regarding science, critical thinking, and clear logic. GDR is much friendlier in this area, even though Tangle often calls believers nutters. So we have Believers, (GDR,Faith and Phat) Onetime Believers(ringo and Tangle) and then we have jar.
(you, for the record)

jar writes:

Throw God Away.


jar writes:

Where is there anything in what you post other than your marketing of your fantasies and the God and Holy Spirit that YOU create?

What is a guy supposed to do with that accusation?
jar writes:

I ask to be taught how anyone can actually know God while still alive and point out that all the evidence is that not one of those who claim to know God ever provide any answer; and that the reality is that every God ever mentioned is simply the creation of a human mind.

For the record, whenever I mention God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit I am not referring to inner characters living at Fosters. I attempted to use scripture to point out that Jesus told Peter that The Holy Spirit revealed to Peter who Jesus actually was. You ignored that, perhaps because you and ringo believe that the characters of the Holy Trinity are limited to the book and are not a part of your perceivable reality. I dont know what any of you think really. If we were sittiong down for coffee face to face it would become clearer what our respective positions were, but we are limited to an exchange of written words and I must confess that it is a stretch and a challenge for me to take the time to sit down as I am doing now and actually think about what I am typing. CS Lewis and his buddy JR Tolkien were likely quite skilled at it.
I recently read Peter Hitchens's book(well, I heard it on my Audible) and just now google a YouTube video which I will share in honor of Tangle's other topic, Hitch Is Dead. For some, the same could be said of Jesus. And the whole topic in which I am replying was started by Lammy and addressed the absurdities and hypothetical questions regarding the worldview of Biblical Christians regarding Endtimes Theology. (for the record)

I am expecting jars quick reply to be "What does this rambling diatribe have to do with the topic?" to which I will reply that it really doesnt...its all about Phat, baby.

jar writes:

The issue is not God but humans Phat. We have covered this very point a Brazillion times yet you never seem to learn or refuse to learn.

The issue is about the characters in the book and whether or not they exist outside the book and outside our individual and collective human minds.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by jar, posted 05-22-2020 5:54 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by jar, posted 05-23-2020 11:51 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 165 of 190 (876583)
05-23-2020 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by coffee_addict
06-23-2004 12:39 PM


Bear With Me Lammy
You might ask why I revived your old topic many years later, and I will state that I did it because I searched our archives for an existing endtimes topic rather than starting a new one. The times we live in are worrisome, though humanity has endured many such crises. Do you have any comments regarding this old topic, religion in general, or your own (hopefully positive) world view? How is your nutrition going, by the way? You were always an inspiration to me regarding healthy choices, and I did not mean to disrespect you in any way by choosing your old topic to dredge up.
In addition, the reason that I posted the Hitchens Debate was entirely spontaneous...I had not yet even watched the debate, but it did apply to this topic. Christopher mentioned last days Theology around the 1-hour 22-minute mark.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by coffee_addict, posted 06-23-2004 12:39 PM coffee_addict has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020