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Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
Phat
Member
Posts: 14132
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 346 of 429 (877706)
06-20-2020 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by jar
06-20-2020 1:07 PM


Re: Burden Of Proof 101
jar writes:

It is important for you to examine your worldview and test it as if you were opposed to it.

OK, but allow me to ask some questions.
  • Is my worldview unique or is it simply lumped in with the collective worldview of the apologists? For the record, I dont believe that Christianity should be conflated with politics, except in the altruistic sense of helping those less fortunate.
  • What specifically am I to oppose about my worldview? Having strongly believed that I came into communion with the living Christ, I would be hard pressed to throw that away. I would even go so far as to ask whats wrong with that belief?

    I've heard your answers. I disagree with some and agree with others. My Christian worldview is applicable to a subset of Christians yet is also personally unique. I DO believe that Jesus is Gods character and that it would be hard to throw that away and agree with a consensus that there is(are) many ways to God, Nirvana, Enlightenment or Inner Peace.

    To be honest, its not easy taking the opposing point of view.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 345 by jar, posted 06-20-2020 1:07 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 347 by jar, posted 06-20-2020 3:39 PM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32654
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 347 of 429 (877707)
    06-20-2020 3:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 346 by Phat
    06-20-2020 3:27 PM


    Re: Burden Of Proof 101
    Phat writes:

    To be honest, its not easy taking the opposing point of view.

    Who in this thread first posted "It is important for you to examine your worldview and test it as if you were opposed to it."?

    Phat writes:

    To me, it would be a sad sobering day if what you guys said were true and that GOD were simply an abstract unproved possibility and that the charge remained defined by humans for humans with no promises of any reward in having fed, clothed, loved, encouraged and supported other humans with no supernatural Father figure ready to hand out rewards to me and my fellow believers for having run the race so well.

    To even consider it as true in any way threatens my assurance that I unerringly believe. I will not doubt!!

    They are, but why should I even bother putting up this argument. You dont want the God that I market even if He were real. (and of course He is. He is alive) And I need Him.

    It frustrates me to no end that you would support a God Who allows people to remain unchanged and allowed to keep their own personality and lifestyle choices. Heaven is not all inclusive. If it were, God and I would have some issues. I would dare scold Him for being so liberal and tolerant. Heck, may as well allow Satan Himself back in!

    Start with each of the above.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 346 by Phat, posted 06-20-2020 3:27 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 348 by Phat, posted 06-21-2020 9:23 AM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14132
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 348 of 429 (877735)
    06-21-2020 9:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 347 by jar
    06-20-2020 3:39 PM


    Re: Burden Of Proof 101
    I attempted to get a grasp of what it was that you guys were suggesting I do. After a bit of searching online in order to understand the task, I found this argument:
    The Falsification Mindset: How to Change Your Own Mind

    Some key points:

  • Basically, when you gain a perspective or theory, you tend to interpret everything as confirming that idea. Whatever seems to contradict it is tossed aside or somehow contorted to fit our beliefs. (Confirmation Bias)
  • As a way to cure this ill of self-confirming theories and belief systems, he (Popper) came up with what is now called falsificationism: the idea that a theory or belief system can only be scientific if it clearly lays out what specific evidence would prove it wrong.

    Reading further:
    Why is falsification important?

  • it helps you to avoid many cognitive biases that can hinder intellectual growth and good decision making
  • it makes you a clearer thinker by forcing you to be specific about what you think you know, and what evidence you have
  • it boosts your creative thinking by making you naturally more receptive to new ideas and helping you more quickly process them

    At this point, my gut level reaction was that if I can falsify my assurance that something is most definitely true, I have weakened my certainty of faith!

    In addition, I have never believed that Evidence is even a needed part of the equation.

    However, the article goes on to say:

    quote:
    Our minds tend to run headlong toward safety and comfort. This is true with regards to physical safety and comfort —but it’s also true of intellectual safety and certainty. If we feel like we know something for sure — like we have a firm grasp of it — we want to hold on to that feeling.
    Because we want to hold on to that feeling, we tend to manufacture certainty by either stopping the search for new information (fearful that it might endanger our feeling of certainty) or interpreting new information in a way that keeps supporting our feeling of certainty.
    Those practices stifles creative thinking, intellectual growth, and personal growth.

    I'm finally beginning to understand what you always meant when you told me to throw God away. I will say that this type of introspection can be quite uncomfortable and angst ridden.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 347 by jar, posted 06-20-2020 3:39 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 349 by jar, posted 06-21-2020 9:41 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 350 by Straggler, posted 06-21-2020 9:44 AM Phat has responded
     Message 418 by Stile, posted 06-29-2020 12:47 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32654
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 349 of 429 (877738)
    06-21-2020 9:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 348 by Phat
    06-21-2020 9:23 AM


    Re: Burden Of Proof 101
    Phat writes:

    I'm finally beginning to understand what you always meant when you told me to throw God away. I will say that this type of introspection can be quite uncomfortable and angst ridden.

    Yes, yes it can. Always best to do it as soon as possible.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 348 by Phat, posted 06-21-2020 9:23 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10312
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006
    Member Rating: 3.0


    (1)
    Message 350 of 429 (877739)
    06-21-2020 9:44 AM
    Reply to: Message 348 by Phat
    06-21-2020 9:23 AM


    Re: Burden Of Proof 101
    The thing with most of the more sophisticated current religious beliefs is that they have evolved to be basically unfalsifiable. A vague, ambiguous and intentionally undefinable concept (GOD) that did/does things that are only subjectively experienced if detectable at all. Ask yourself why those who hold and cherish religious beliefs might “design” their concepts in this way...

    And by “design” I mean a process of meme adaption down the generations that we could call “survival of the least falsifiable”.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 348 by Phat, posted 06-21-2020 9:23 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 351 by Phat, posted 06-21-2020 1:12 PM Straggler has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14132
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 351 of 429 (877748)
    06-21-2020 1:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 350 by Straggler
    06-21-2020 9:44 AM


    Re: Burden Of Proof 101
    Speaking as a believer (and by this I mean someone who became (or thought he became) Born Again and filled with Gods Spirit) falsification of such a tangible and real experience will have to be allowed and initiated by the Spirit of God Himself. You guys just dont understand how personal and close God is to me. I'm not talking about the dogma, nor the teachings of the church-at-large nor of the fervent people surrounding me (at a 6 foot social distance) and singing to Him in church---though all of that serves to fuel a confirmation bias. I'm talking about my private prayer life and time of meditation, introspection, and communion.

    This is most definitely something I would not seek to falsify unless the Holy Spirit gave me a subtle thumbs up that it was not harmful to do so.

    Does that make any sense to you from your perspective and if not why not?


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 350 by Straggler, posted 06-21-2020 9:44 AM Straggler has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 353 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2020 1:42 PM Phat has responded
     Message 355 by Straggler, posted 06-21-2020 2:01 PM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32654
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 352 of 429 (877751)
    06-21-2020 1:18 PM


    From today's service
    quote:
    Come, let us sing to the Lord; *

    let us shout for joy to the Rock of our salvation.

    Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving *

    and raise a loud shout to him with psalms.

    For the Lord is a great God, *

    and a great King above all gods.

    In his hand are the caverns of the earth, *

    and the heights of the hills are his also.

    The sea is his, for he made it, *

    and his hands have molded the dry land.

    Come, let us bow down, and bend the knee, *

    and kneel before the Lord our Maker.

    For he is our God,

    and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. *

    Oh, that today you would hearken to his voice!


    Read that carefully Phat and think about what it actually says. It is "The Venite", the "Oh Come". It is a part of what is known as "Morning Prayer", a service to begin each Christian's day.

    But it is also in many ways directly opposition to the God that you market.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    Replies to this message:
     Message 354 by Phat, posted 06-21-2020 1:46 PM jar has responded
     Message 361 by Phat, posted 06-22-2020 8:51 AM jar has responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 7710
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 2.8


    (1)
    Message 353 of 429 (877754)
    06-21-2020 1:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 351 by Phat
    06-21-2020 1:12 PM


    Re: Burden Of Proof 101
    Phat writes:

    You guys just don't understand how personal and close God is to me [....] Does that make any sense to you from your perspective and if not why not?

    Of course we understand; it's a delusion, they're very powerful things. If you talked that way about anything else other than religion you'd be seeing a doctor. Religious delusions get a free pass in our society.

    Some of us have felt the same and managed to snap out of it. Some - like you - really want the delusion so it continues.

    Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 351 by Phat, posted 06-21-2020 1:12 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 356 by Phat, posted 06-21-2020 2:26 PM Tangle has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14132
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 354 of 429 (877755)
    06-21-2020 1:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 352 by jar
    06-21-2020 1:18 PM


    Re: From today's service
    As I listened to a few recordings and versions of the Venite, I began to meditate and commune with God as I understand Him. If you recall, I used to (and still do in my fleshier moments) accuse you of being obtuse and private in your refusal to discuss your own personal relationship with God,Jesus, and the Holy Spirit and because of your refusal I was led to believe that you didnt have a relationship. In fact, you always asked (and ask) me how such a relationship would even be possible.
    The Venite 609

    So just now, I meditated on this morning prayer of which you speak. I paid attention to the beauty of the expression of faith that was more a discipline and less raw charismatic emotion. I thought to myself how, if God exists (which I believe He does) and if He judges the thoughts and intents of the human heart, singing such a prayer as a daily discipline would serve the purpose of emptying my mind of the daily wish list that I normally would discuss with God and would instead focus on my adoration and respect for Him rather than my expectation of a favoring cosmic Father whom I took for granted.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 352 by jar, posted 06-21-2020 1:18 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 358 by jar, posted 06-21-2020 3:44 PM Phat has responded

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10312
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 355 of 429 (877756)
    06-21-2020 2:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 351 by Phat
    06-21-2020 1:12 PM


    Re: Burden Of Proof 101
    And that’s why such beliefs are “designed” to be unfalsifiable. You couldn’t bear the idea of them being falsified. You are far from alone in that.

    Does that make any sense to you from your perspective and if not why not?

    It does make sense. In psychological sense at least. But I’m sure that in my case if I held such beliefs there would be a nagging part of me wondering if the reason I was so resistant, and the reason the beliefs themselves seemed so designed to be avoid falsification, was because they weren’t actually true....


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 351 by Phat, posted 06-21-2020 1:12 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 357 by Phat, posted 06-21-2020 2:33 PM Straggler has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14132
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 356 of 429 (877758)
    06-21-2020 2:26 PM
    Reply to: Message 353 by Tangle
    06-21-2020 1:42 PM


    Re: Burden Of Proof 101
    But how can you say with 100% certainty that it is a delusion? Why is the idea that my beliefs are a delusion itself not falsifiable?

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 353 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2020 1:42 PM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 359 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2020 4:59 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14132
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 357 of 429 (877759)
    06-21-2020 2:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 355 by Straggler
    06-21-2020 2:01 PM


    Re: Burden Of Proof 101
    Straggler writes:

    But I’m sure that in my case if I held such beliefs there would be a nagging part of me wondering if the reason I was so resistant, and the reason the beliefs themselves seemed so designed to be avoid falsification, was because they weren’t actually true....

    I like the honesty. There should be a "nagging part" of us that remains unconvinced (or brainwashed, as it were)

    And I say "brainwashed" to make you guys laugh---the believers would not laugh. They would never entertain such a notion for it would threaten their very sanity.

    Look, I got saved in 1993 and have been quite convinced, resisting doubt, defending my faith as any good apologist would do, and encouraging others to share my faith with me. One strong reason that I choose to continue to believe the way that I do is because there have been many many times...too numerous to count---where scripture spoke to me in a way that no other book can or has done for me. You would likely chalk it up to confirmation bias, however.

    Have you ever known any friends who were or are strong believers? Do you get along with them?


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 355 by Straggler, posted 06-21-2020 2:01 PM Straggler has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 360 by Straggler, posted 06-21-2020 5:21 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32654
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 358 of 429 (877771)
    06-21-2020 3:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 354 by Phat
    06-21-2020 1:46 PM


    Re: From today's service
    But did you read it as I suggested?

    quote:
    Come, let us sing to the Lord; *
    let us shout for joy to the Rock of our salvation.

    Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving *

    and raise a loud shout to him with psalms.

    For the Lord is a great God, *

    and a great King above all gods.

    In his hand are the caverns of the earth, *

    and the heights of the hills are his also.

    The sea is his, for he made it, *

    and his hands have molded the dry land.

    Come, let us bow down, and bend the knee, *

    and kneel before the Lord our Maker.

    For he is our God,

    and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. *

    Oh, that today you would hearken to his voice!



    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 354 by Phat, posted 06-21-2020 1:46 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 366 by Phat, posted 06-23-2020 11:57 AM jar has responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 7710
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 359 of 429 (877776)
    06-21-2020 4:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 356 by Phat
    06-21-2020 2:26 PM


    Re: Burden Of Proof 101
    Phat writes:

    But how can you say with 100% certainty that it is a delusion?

    Because you think you're talking to an invisible being. That pretty much does it.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 356 by Phat, posted 06-21-2020 2:26 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 363 by Phat, posted 06-22-2020 9:26 AM Tangle has responded

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10312
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006
    Member Rating: 3.0


    (2)
    Message 360 of 429 (877778)
    06-21-2020 5:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 357 by Phat
    06-21-2020 2:33 PM


    Re: Burden Of Proof 101
    Have you ever known any friends who were or are strong believers? Do you get along with them?

    Of course! My late grandfather was a pretty devout Catholic. Current friend at work is a Muslim. And lots of people I am friends with are believers of one sort or another. I keep my fervent irreligiousness to debate sites generally!

    Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 357 by Phat, posted 06-21-2020 2:33 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
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