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Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
Phat
Member
Posts: 14672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 361 of 460 (877813)
06-22-2020 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 352 by jar
06-21-2020 1:18 PM


Re: From today's service
jar writes:

Read that carefully Phat and think about what it actually says. It is "The Venite", the "Oh Come". It is a part of what is known as "Morning Prayer", a service to begin each Christian's day.

But it is also in many ways (in direct) opposition to the God that you market.

I dont yet see why.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by jar, posted 06-21-2020 1:18 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by jar, posted 06-22-2020 8:58 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32966
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 362 of 460 (877814)
06-22-2020 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 361 by Phat
06-22-2020 8:51 AM


Re: From today's service
Read it again. Slowly. Pay attention to what is actually written.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by Phat, posted 06-22-2020 8:51 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 363 of 460 (877815)
06-22-2020 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by Tangle
06-21-2020 4:59 PM


Re: Burden Of Proof 101
Tangle writes:

Because you think you're talking to an invisible being. That pretty much does it.

Well it certainly seems saner than thinking I was talking to a visible being. My personal opinion is that statues, icons, shrouds, and priests get in the way of such a communion. And I dont really sense an "invisible being" so much as I sense an omnipresent Being. Of course I know that there is no evidence of anyone in my apartment...nor any more so when I kneel at an altar or reflect quietly on a ledge in the crisp morning air of the mountains...or sit by the sea. Invisible is fine with me...I wouldn't expect it to be any other way.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2020 4:59 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2020 10:23 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7957
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 364 of 460 (877820)
06-22-2020 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 363 by Phat
06-22-2020 9:26 AM


Re: Burden Of Proof 101
Phat writes:

Invisible is fine with me...I wouldn't expect it to be any other way.

It couldn't be any other way could it? If it was visible you wouldn't be delusional, you would be having a normal conversation with a real person.

As it is you're no different than children with imaginary friends and adults inmates I've visited in mental hospitals that talk to ghosts and ancestors. Every one of them believe the invisible person to be real. Absolutely real.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by Phat, posted 06-22-2020 9:26 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by Phat, posted 06-23-2020 11:32 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 365 of 460 (877910)
06-23-2020 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by Tangle
06-22-2020 10:23 AM


Re: Burden Of Proof 101
It couldn't be any other way could it? If it was visible you wouldn't be delusional, you would be having a normal conversation with a real person.
What if it was not visible yet was distinctly tangible? How do we test for that?

The problem here is that you use a static method of determining reality...which is of course evidence of absence. What you have done, however, is to conclude that since A does not exist and since the patient proclaims the existence of A, the patient *must* be delusional. Granted this may be true in 99 out of 100 models, but it is not proof that there is no such thing as A.

Science can not rule out the possibility that God exists nor can science even test for the existence of God using their own biased minds to do so.
AddByEdit: Now I will allow that science can make the test as unbiased as possible, but I feel that if we had an equal number of believing scientists as we did atheist or unbelieving scientists, our conclusions may be interpreted differently depending on which group was reporting.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2020 10:23 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by Tangle, posted 06-23-2020 12:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 369 by ringo, posted 06-24-2020 10:28 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 366 of 460 (877913)
06-23-2020 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 358 by jar
06-21-2020 3:44 PM


Using Poppers Ideas In Understanding The Morning Prayer
OK lets look at this from Poppers theory of falsification and the opposite tendency towards confirmation bias.

Come, let us sing to the Lord; *
let us shout for joy to the Rock of our salvation.
My usual belief would be to say that God is omnipresent and thus we are gathered together to sing to Him and to shout for joy to Him and for him. Falsification may tell me that there is no evidence that God is actually present but that the point is for the people to celebrate belief in His reality in Communion (and song) with each other.

Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving *

and raise a loud shout to him with psalms.

I would usually emphasize His presence. Falsification would likely emphasize the word us and would support your belief that Christianity is about what *we* do and not about what we expect *Him* to do.

For the Lord is a great God, *

and a great King above all gods.

In his hand are the caverns of the earth, *

and the heights of the hills are his also.

The sea is his, for he made it, *

and his hands have molded the dry land.

Come, let us bow down, and bend the knee, *

and kneel before the Lord our Maker.

For he is our God,

and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. *

I would say that He is so huge...so absolutely BIG and that we need to get in one accord and worship Him. Falsification may suggest that this is a metaphor for reality and that though we humans may collectively believe that God is reality, the evidence would again suggest that it is *we* who need to do the work. After all, we are His body and if we do the work it allows Him to do the work.

Oh, that today you would hearken to his voice!
I hope that by slowing down and rereading the poem with a deeper reverence and perspective, I did hear His voice. Thanks for guiding me to see this another way than my usual knee-jerk beliefs.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by jar, posted 06-21-2020 3:44 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by jar, posted 06-23-2020 2:06 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7957
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 367 of 460 (877917)
06-23-2020 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by Phat
06-23-2020 11:32 AM


Re: Burden Of Proof 101
Phat writes:

What if it was not visible yet was distinctly tangible? How do we test for that?

Touch it.

The problem here is that you use a static method of determining reality...which is of course evidence of absence. What you have done, however, is to conclude that since A does not exist and since the patient proclaims the existence of A, the patient *must* be delusional.

Correct. That's the definition of delusional.

Granted this may be true in 99 out of 100 models, but it is not proof that there is no such thing as A.

Yes it is. A is invisible and unheard (and untouched) by all other observers. As the subject is a standard human with no more sensory apparatus than anyone else, A does not exist

Science can not rule out the possibility that God exists

There's nothing special about not being able to rule out your particular god. Science can't rule out anything that is invisible and undetectable - including all the usual examples of mythical being from elves to hobgoblins. Your god is just another one of thousands.

nor can science even test for the existence of God using their own biased minds to do so.
Uh? Science is the most unbiased human activity we know.

AddByEdit: Now I will allow that science can make the test as unbiased as possible, but I feel that if we had an equal number of believing scientists as we did atheist or unbelieving scientists, our conclusions may be interpreted differently depending on which group was reporting.

ffs Phat, atheists are about 10% of the population, granted that the % will be higher in science - and most activities that require a better than average brain (and yes, that is a fact, not a slur) but in a christian country like America it's scientists will be predominantly christian.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Phat, posted 06-23-2020 11:32 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32966
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 368 of 460 (877929)
06-23-2020 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by Phat
06-23-2020 11:57 AM


Re: Using Poppers Ideas In Understanding The Morning Prayer
You are still showing that you are not honestly reading what is written.

Try again.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Phat, posted 06-23-2020 11:57 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by Phat, posted 06-24-2020 11:55 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 369 of 460 (877985)
06-24-2020 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 365 by Phat
06-23-2020 11:32 AM


Re: Burden Of Proof 101
Phat writes:

What if it was not visible yet was distinctly tangible? How do we test for that?


Better look up what tangible means. Might as well look up inaudible, tasteless and odorless while you're at it. All of the senses can be tested.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Phat, posted 06-23-2020 11:32 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 370 of 460 (877988)
06-24-2020 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by jar
06-23-2020 2:06 PM


Re: Using Poppers Ideas In Understanding The Morning Prayer
OK I read it again. About all I can add is that *we* are the sheep of His hand. In other words, symbolically we are His hand.

If I am missing anything else, it may be revealed to me eventually, were I to make such a prayer a daily practice. And though I see the metaphor, I give His mind the kudos for directing "His" Hand. Perhaps the idea is that we *all* are his people, I dunno.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by jar, posted 06-23-2020 2:06 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by jar, posted 06-24-2020 12:40 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32966
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 371 of 460 (877991)
06-24-2020 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by Phat
06-24-2020 11:55 AM


Re: Using Poppers Ideas In Understanding The Morning Prayer
Try reading it again.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Phat, posted 06-24-2020 11:55 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by Phat, posted 06-25-2020 4:28 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 372 of 460 (878041)
06-25-2020 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 371 by jar
06-24-2020 12:40 PM


Re: Using Poppers Ideas In Understanding The Morning Prayer
why though? Honestly I have read it several times. Its not that long.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by jar, posted 06-24-2020 12:40 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by jar, posted 06-25-2020 7:35 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32966
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 373 of 460 (878046)
06-25-2020 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 372 by Phat
06-25-2020 4:28 AM


Re: Using Poppers Ideas In Understanding The Morning Prayer
No Phat, you have skimmed it selecting only the pieces parts that make you happy.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Phat, posted 06-25-2020 4:28 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Phat, posted 06-25-2020 8:22 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 374 of 460 (878047)
06-25-2020 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 373 by jar
06-25-2020 7:35 AM


jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
Evidently this prayer is more akin to the God you market than it is to the God I market. (Reading it again)... OK I found this.
Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving *
and raise a loud shout to him with psalms.
I believe that His presence is not confined to a symbolic table of bread and wine. I believe that God is *with* everyone on the planet and *In* those who have asked Him to commune with them. Communion is symbolic to be sure, but it is also very tangible and actual for a believer.
(continues reading)
For the Lord is a great God, *
and a great King above all gods.
This reminds me of your GOD, God, and god expression. I would disagree with the precise wording, saying that the Lord(aka Jesus) is a great GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen. Supported through scripture as being with God in the beginning. I could care less what other religions say and think that GOD is---for to me, they worship gods unless they too have been made aware of the real One. (sorry, im being honest....I believe in exclusivity when it comes to God. This will eventually cause friction between the global inclusiveness and the Christian exclusiveness...down the road)

Also keep in mind that my thoughts on the prayer and what it must mean for the Episcopal Church vs what it means to me may differ from day to day. I believe but cannot KNOW that my idea of GOD is the real One or not...though I suspect that the podcasts that I listen to contain a revealed truth and anointing that your garden variety critical thinker who attends Episcopal Church simply does not have (largely because they have already consciously rejected exclusivity)
(continues reading)

For he is our God,

and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand.

If by that they honestly acknowledge that the God of that congregation is unique only to them and that the Club they are in is not the only club there is or the one that is the best, they will be patted on the back for being politically correct and empathetic to other beliefs. As for me and my group? We believe that if we fast and pray, GOD will reveal Himself to us and the rest of the people on this rock better either catch up or suffer the consequences. Granted just saying this stuff and being honest shows me my blatant exclusivity. But whats so wrong with exclusivity? This whole live and let live kum-ba-yah thing where everyone has a right to be different clashes with End Times Charismatic Christian Exclusivity.

There I said it.

you have skimmed it selecting only the pieces parts that make you happy.
Guilty as charged. Please pray for me that I may become better enlightened.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by jar, posted 06-25-2020 7:35 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by jar, posted 06-25-2020 8:52 AM Phat has responded
 Message 376 by Tangle, posted 06-25-2020 2:22 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32966
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 375 of 460 (878048)
06-25-2020 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 374 by Phat
06-25-2020 8:22 AM


Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
Finally.

Now the next step is to take what you learned about reading and comprehension and try to apply it to EVERY bit of content EVERYWHERE.

AbE:

Phat, you are always claiming that what I call Christianity is some unique cult limited only to a membership of one; however the Venite is from Psalm 95 (or Psalm 94 if reading from the Vulgate) and is attributed to David although of course actual authorship is unknown. Parts of Psalm 95 are also quote in Hebrews.

These are basics Phat. They are not some new creation but rather foundational to Judaism, Islam and Christianity.

Edited by jar, : see AbE:

Edited by jar, : the ---> to


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Phat, posted 06-25-2020 8:22 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by Phat, posted 06-25-2020 2:57 PM jar has responded

  
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