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Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
Phat
Member
Posts: 14662
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 406 of 460 (878157)
06-26-2020 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 404 by jar
06-26-2020 11:28 AM


Freewill, Omniscience, and Determinism
Here we go off on a rabbit trail. I will allow it, for this topic is about the possibility of the End Times and I think it is important to realize that as the war of ideologies, world views, humanism vs apologetic Christianity, minority cultures vs white privilege, and finally exclusivity vs inclusive thinking heats up, these issues will define the human responses that we see on a daily basis. Never mind the belief that we are in a spiritual war. I'll throw that one out for now. We can always pick it back up later.

jar writes:

What YOU fail to consider is the reality of what your claim shows.

There are several parts to the issue.

Is God the creator of all that is, seen and unseen?

Is God omniscient?

Is anyone or anything sent to hell?

Perhaps we need to first address what hell is and why hell exists (within our argued construct) We next need to point out that you think that God is a human creation and I think that He existed long before humans were even around. So before I address your questions philosophically, consider allowing mine into the public record.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : spelling


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by jar, posted 06-26-2020 11:28 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by jar, posted 06-26-2020 12:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32955
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 407 of 460 (878159)
06-26-2020 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by Phat
06-26-2020 11:55 AM


Re: Freewill, Omniscience, and Determinism
Phat writes:

Perhaps we need to first address what hell is and why hell exists (within our argued construct)

Which is simply another of your attempts to deny reality and play sophomoric moronic word games. What Hell is in Christianity is clearly set out in the Bible.

Phat writes:

We next need to point out that you think that God is a human creation and I think that He existed long before humans were even around

Which is nothing but yet another misrepresentation of what I have posted at best and more likely simply yet another attempt for you to lie.

Phat writes:

So before I address your questions philosophically, consider allowing mine into the public record.

So before you post more utter nonsense how about you answering the three questions?

There are several parts to the issue.

Is God the creator of all that is, seen and unseen?

Is God omniscient?

Is anyone or anything sent to hell?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Phat, posted 06-26-2020 11:55 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 408 of 460 (878160)
06-26-2020 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 403 by Phat
06-26-2020 11:22 AM


Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
Phat writes:

I disagree. Creating the possibility of evil was only done so that Angelic Beings would not be zombies.

I wish you could read the stuff you write through my eyes - this is pure Lord of the Rings fantasy stuff. It's childish and embarrassing.

It's also not internally logical - heaven is populated with such 'zombies'. You are desperate to be just such a 'zombie'. Happy ever after at the right hand of your Lord, all sweetness and light, not an evil or selfish thought crossing your mind.

Perhaps it was foreknown that Lucifer and 1/3 of these beings would choose rebellion but that foreknowledge is in and of itself not evil.

If it was foreknown and done anyway, of course it's evil. Even our human systems allow for recklessness as a crime even without full intent. If you know there's a high likelihood of causing harm but are reckless to that risk, you commit the crime.

It was necessary for the term freewill to even have any meaning.

Freewill has no meaning at all, it doesn't bloody exist! I am absolutely incapable of strangling a baby and so are you. I have a sense of morality that prevents it. For freewill to be even contemplated as a real thing, we'd all have to be medically psychopathic.

I already addressed this argument back in Message 394. Look at the original Hebrew.

More semantics and apologetics. More 'interpretation' of inconvenient ideas. There's no end to it is there? Hand-wave away all the problems because you have the revealed truth. It's bonkers Phat; delusion.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by Phat, posted 06-26-2020 11:22 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18798
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 409 of 460 (878171)
06-26-2020 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by Phat
06-26-2020 11:45 AM


Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
Phat writes:

You cant simply take two believers and claim that they both experienced the same things.


And you can not claim that somebody else has not experienced what you have experienced.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Why is "free will" so all-fired important to you?


I never said it was.

By it seems to be the entire premise of your theology. In Message 392 you said, "I would argue that the only way that humans could ever truly have free will is through being offered a choice between Gods authority and the lie of autonomy provided by the sneaky snake." So forget free will. Explain your theology without any mention of free will.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

How the hell is bowing to authority "free will"?


It is surrendering to the fact that God is good.

That doesn't answer the question. It doesn't even have anything to do with the question.

It isn't about God at all. It's about you. How can unconditional obedience involve free will?

Phat writes:

Bow willfully now or forcefully later.


So take it or leave it. That isn't free will.

Phat writes:

All that your free will wont do is allow you to escape what you claim is ignorance and create a brave new secular world which itself will succeed.


Then it isn't free will. In fact, in your scenario, God has to actively prevent me from succeeding.

Phat writes:

I do not believe in the snake.


You're rejecting the truth and embracing a lie. That is not good theology.

I think at some level you know it's a lie, otherwise you wouldn't be so afraid of discussing it.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

How many times do I have to point out that there is no transformation?


Romans 12:1 clearly says that there is.

I didn't say a word about what Romans claims. I said there IS no transformation. I can see that in your life. If Romans claims there is a magical transformation, Romans is wrong.

Phat writes:

Are you also now throwing out the book?


Of course not. I point out what the book says. Much of what it says is not true but it still says what it says.

Phat writes:

Jesus is not a human socialist.


He certainly was, as the Bible clearly shows - and you're afraid to discuss that too.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by Phat, posted 06-26-2020 11:45 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by Phat, posted 06-27-2020 3:26 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14662
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 410 of 460 (878227)
06-27-2020 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 409 by ringo
06-26-2020 3:45 PM


Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
How can unconditional obedience involve free will?
Get your mythos straight. 2/3 of the angels chose NOT to rebel. That is free will in action.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by ringo, posted 06-26-2020 3:45 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by ringo, posted 06-27-2020 10:19 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18798
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 411 of 460 (878245)
06-27-2020 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by Phat
06-27-2020 3:26 PM


Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

How can unconditional obedience involve free will?


Get your mythos straight. 2/3 of the angels chose NOT to rebel. That is free will in action.

That doesn't answer the question. They might have been obedient slaves or they might have been discontented slaves who were afraid of the consequences of rebellion. There is no reason to think they had "free will" or to think they used it if they had it.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Phat, posted 06-27-2020 3:26 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by Phat, posted 06-28-2020 1:56 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14662
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 412 of 460 (878252)
06-28-2020 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 411 by ringo
06-27-2020 10:19 PM


Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
So there is no reason to think that they were not slaves? Surely your logic puzzles us.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by ringo, posted 06-27-2020 10:19 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by ringo, posted 06-28-2020 1:19 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18798
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 413 of 460 (878269)
06-28-2020 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 412 by Phat
06-28-2020 1:56 AM


Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
Phat writes:

So there is no reason to think that they were not slaves? Surely your logic puzzles us.


If they walk like a slave and talk like a slave....

Show YOUR logic.


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by Phat, posted 06-28-2020 1:56 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by Phat, posted 06-28-2020 3:59 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14662
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 414 of 460 (878275)
06-28-2020 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 413 by ringo
06-28-2020 1:19 PM


Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
Show YOUR logic.
Granted for the sake of this discussion we are talking hypotheticals and philosophy here. All that I have to go on is either what an apologist thought or what I myself think.
Given that God exists and is essentially the Creator of all seen and unseen and given that He is the God of scripture Who is Jesus Father (in a Triune Concept) and given that God had angels....
Why is it as logical to believe that Angels are zombies over the idea that Angels had and have Free Will? Why would God need to create zombies? And the apologetic argument is as good of one as any...that Lucifer chose autonomy over authority. That is not an action a zombie would make. It is equally plausible that 2/3 of the Angels chose Authority. They happened to like existing as servants for their Boss. Now unless you want to pull Stan Lee in here(we would need another resurrection, however ) and ask for his opinion, I see nothing wrong with the popular apologetic model...which by the way most Christians dont even go so far as to know.

Now you are perfectly free to throw it all away, but then it becomes your turn to replace my hypothetical and not by saying we simply live, do our best for each other and die...turning to worm food and ceasing to exist. That hypothetical is less likely. Humans know and have seen too much to be atheistic materialists as a species.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by ringo, posted 06-28-2020 1:19 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by ringo, posted 06-29-2020 11:15 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18798
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 415 of 460 (878344)
06-29-2020 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 414 by Phat
06-28-2020 3:59 PM


Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
Phat writes:

Why is it as logical to believe that Angels are zombies over the idea that Angels had and have Free Will?


Again, why not?

Phat writes:

Why would God need to create zombies?


Why would He need to create rebels?

Phat writes:

And the apologetic argument is as good of one as any...that Lucifer chose autonomy over authority. That is not an action a zombie would make.


But you need to explain the ones who "chose" slavery, not just the ones who chose freedom.

Phat writes:

It is equally plausible that 2/3 of the Angels chose Authority. They happened to like existing as servants for their Boss.


I don't think it's plausible at all. How many people would choose slavery if it was actually a choice. That is the argument that slavers used to use ("Slavery is fun! They like it!) but it doesn't fly very high in the face of reality.

Phat writes:

but then it becomes your turn to replace my hypothetical and not by saying we simply live, do our best for each other and die...turning to worm food and ceasing to exist. That hypothetical is less likely.


Why?

Phat writes:

Humans know and have seen too much to be atheistic materialists as a species.


By that logic, they also know too much and have seen too much to be Christians. Christianity, especially your right-wing-nutty cult, is very much a minority.

But practically every religion DOES believe in doing our best for each other, so clearly your assessment of "plausibility" is way off.


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Phat, posted 06-28-2020 3:59 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by Phat, posted 06-29-2020 11:25 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14662
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 416 of 460 (878347)
06-29-2020 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 415 by ringo
06-29-2020 11:15 AM


Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
The first mistake you make (and its huge) is to equate obedience to God with slavery. When the Prince of Peace is your Boss, you are not a slave but a son.

You seem to think freedom is being able to do whatever you want. Which is fine if you believe the lie that the universe is simply some vast frontier awaiting discovery.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by ringo, posted 06-29-2020 11:15 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by ringo, posted 06-29-2020 11:37 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18798
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(3)
Message 417 of 460 (878350)
06-29-2020 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 416 by Phat
06-29-2020 11:25 AM


Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
Phat writes:

The first mistake you make (and its huge) is to equate obedience to God with slavery. When the Prince of Peace is your Boss, you are not a slave but a son.


See the story of the prodigal son. He was disobedient but his father didn't kick him out of heaven. He welcomed him home. Doesn't that sound inclusive to you?

Sorry, try again.

Phat writes:

You seem to think freedom is being able to do whatever you want.


By definition, yes.

Phat writes:

Which is fine if you believe the lie that the universe is simply some vast frontier awaiting discovery.


That's not a lie.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by Phat, posted 06-29-2020 11:25 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by Phat, posted 06-29-2020 3:50 PM ringo has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4003
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 418 of 460 (878359)
06-29-2020 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Phat
06-21-2020 9:23 AM


Re: Burden Of Proof 101
Phat writes:

At this point, my gut level reaction was that if I can falsify my assurance that something is most definitely true, I have weakened my certainty of faith!

Just for clarification:

It will not weaken the certainty of your faith.
The actual veracity of your faith is as it always was - unknown.

It may, however, weaken your perception of your certainty of your faith.

And, it's a personal question that only you can answer:

Does Phat want "certainty of faith!" regardless of the actual veracity of that faith?
(Prioritize personally feeling good - regardless of reality's truth)

or

Does Phat want "certainty of faith!" in things that are, actually, likely to be true?
(Prioritize reality's truth - regardless of personal feelings on the matter)

For certain things, it is an easy pick.
One will always prefer "reality's truth" over "personal feelings on the matter" when deciding whether or not to look both ways before crossing the street.

For other things, it is not easy, and it is a personal decision which is best.
Sometimes, "feeling good" can (and should) be prioritized over reality's truth. (Usually when "feeling good" gets blurred in with "reality's truth")
For example: Someone choosing to deny/ignore/refuse-to-accept-credibility of certain historical events in their past in order to be happy in the present.
Like a rape victim choosing not to focus on the event because it is too painful and debilitating to even attempt to heal through therapy.

It's up to you to choose which is best for you in which situations.
And, of course, up to the rest of us to do the same ourselves.

When the two path's cross - it can be difficult to "hide one's aversion to reality's truth" when discussing with someone else who prioritizes "discovering reality's truth regardless of personal feelings" on any particular matter.

Best practice is to be able to identify which one you're doing.
-when you want to avoid reality; then avoid situations where others want to investigate reality.
-when you want to investigate reality; avoid actively seeking out people-minding-their-own-business and forcing them to listen to you.

It's the only way everyone can do what they want with their personal lives without affecting others.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Phat, posted 06-21-2020 9:23 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 267
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 419 of 460 (878372)
06-29-2020 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by Phat
06-26-2020 11:45 AM


Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
Hi Phat,

1)God is sovereign. God is good. Bow willfully now or forcefully later.

Does this sound remotely like free will to you?

If we don't do it willingly now, we'll bloody well do it by force soon. Either free or by force we will all have to do it.

Free will from the deity of your theology is both an illusion and a delusion.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by Phat, posted 06-26-2020 11:45 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by Phat, posted 06-29-2020 3:55 PM Aussie has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14662
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 420 of 460 (878390)
06-29-2020 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 417 by ringo
06-29-2020 11:37 AM


Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
That's not a lie.
Its a partial truth. God exists. God is spirit. The universe is populated by Onee Creator of all seen and unseen and, by design, a bunch of rebels. Imitators. Prodigal Angels? Maybe...thats a strange concept which I wont deny nor embrace. All I know is that as far as humans are concerned, we have a choice of the illusion of autonomy...which if we collectively choose we will learn the hard way or Son-ship...which would place us in Communion with this One Creator of all seen and unseen, allow us to explore the universe similar to how Gene Roddenberry imagined it--and "The Federation" which is the good guys is good because they submitted to a Good GOD rather than choosing to become a bunch of rebels clawing their way to the top of an imagined empire and dominion. Truth is stranger than Fiction.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by ringo, posted 06-29-2020 11:37 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by ringo, posted 06-29-2020 4:00 PM Phat has responded

  
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