When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?

Tangle writes: The religionists have no answer, but it makes no difference to their belief. Belief is impervious to logic.

Not everything is logical.

And as an aside, I know you think I am depriving myself of a useful life by insisting on pushing these arguments. I appreciate your concern.

Im not as whacky in everyday life as I am on this Forum. Thanks for caring, however.

Phat writes: Not everything is logical.

Philosophical arguments are logical or they're nothing. The problem of suffering is a logical argument that you - or any other religionist - has no answer to. You can not explain why a god that loves you also tortures you both in this life and potentially in the next.

But, as I say, your beliefs are not rational so why let a little paradox like that worry you? Your beliefs are not founded on reason so it is unlikely that reason will change your mind.

Phat writes: The point is that none of you have refuted much of anything.

Nonsense. Just the other day I showed you that your apologist was lying through his teeth. I quoted the Bible and I quoted where he directly contradicted it. And no response from you.

Phat writes: All you have done is set the ground rules that I must present verifiable evidence.

See above. You're ignoring the evidence.

Phat writes: Science will never prove that God exists.

That isn't the issue here.

Phat writes: Just because you were dumb enough to drop your belief does not mean that you can insist that I follow the same path of "logic" that duped you into dropping yours.

Logic is logic. You don't get to make up your own. I have SHOWED you the logic - see above - and you ignore it.

Phat writes: there are some who I consider legit that have seen and done stuff that you would consider impossible barring evidence.

As I keep telling you, I have seen stuff too that I can't explain. Not being able to explain something is not an excuse for making up a bullshit explanation. And it is certainly no excuse for clinging to the bullshit in spite of being shown that it's bullshit.

Why can't you just admit that you don't know?

Phat writes: The fact that you shut the miraculous off from consideration is your fault---not mine.

I DON'T shut off the miraculous from consideration. I just don't jump to the conclusion of miraculous.

Science will never prove that God exists.

You've been around these parts long enough to know that science never proves anything. It only weighs the evidence.

And on that score ALL the evidence, with none opposed, considers your god, and all gods, as tales of ancient myths and have no discernable influence in this universe.

The fact that you shut the miraculous off from consideration is your fault---not mine.

Oh pray tell, what "miraculous" anything, anywhere, anytime, can you show us any evidence of happening? I want to see this "miraculous" and its evidence.

Show me.

How can a good, all-powerful God tolerate evil? If he can’t stop evil from happening, he can’t be truly all-powerful. But if he is all-powerful and is not inclined to stop the evil persisting on earth, how can he be all-good? This is commonly known as the Problem of Evil and still puzzles a lot of people. Presumably since everything comes from God, so does evil.

Even the bible itself concedes that, but apologists can't seem to grasp the concept.

quote:

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I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. -- Isaiah 45:7

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I suppose it is conceivable that is the absence of good as a frame of reference just as darkness contrasts light -- one would be meaningless without the other, which makes it a requirement to allow the existence of evil. Its also conceivable that God will grant people the ability to fall so as to not conflict with their ability to make freewill choices. Of course, this is where the real slippery slope comes into play. If god is omniscient and already knows the fate of every single human soul, and yet he set the entire thing in motion, then the fate of human beings is all but predetermined. If that is the case, then freewill is merely an illusion.

You really need to let go of that word.

Looking at my Message 454 what word are you suggesting I let go?

I can understand "evidence" being a big pain in the ass for you since you have none and we have it all but I'm not clear to what specific word you refer.

The fact that you shut the miraculous off from consideration is your fault---not mine.

You still need to show us these "miraculous" things you think need to be considered. Got any facts to go with your miracles?

Or any evidence what is marketed as a "miracle" actually is miraculous.

AZPaul3 writes: I can understand "evidence" being a big pain in the ass for you since you have none and we have it all but I'm not clear to what specific word you refer.

You know the word is evidence. And its not true that you guys in any way have it all and that I have none. And that even assumes that physical evidence is even possible in this day and age (regarding Gods existence)

Edited by Phat, : removed cussing. I'm keeping my "demon" in check.

And its not true that you guys in any way have it all and that I have none.

Yeah, it is. The evidence you THINK you have involves a hand-scratched and much embellished compendium of ancient myths with zero confidence in their authorship/legitimacy/efficacy and more centers on your emotional feelings, wants, desires and wishful thinking.

We have gone years round and round on your evidence and your need (your insistence, your demand) that your emotional whims and deepest feelings be seen on the same level of evidence with demonstrable scientific fact because you have none of the latter. Such is rejected as evidence because these are apt to change day to day for no other reason than a spike in your blood sugar level.

If there is anything else more substantial to your "evidence" then, after all these decades of dickin' around, produce it.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

AZ writes: Still took a few months to come completely out of the closet and become the annoying atheist I am today but I've been spook/ghost-free, conscience-clear and firmly embedded in reality (except for the occasional chemical-induced side trip) ever since.

Maybe you just think that you are spook-free. If I were a 5000 year old disembodied personality in search of a host, what better candidate than an educated and somewhat wise liberally minded mature man from the pagan haunts of Arizona? He wouldn't even believe that I exist (nor my Boss nor his Boss) he is a strong anti-theist, and he sees the handwriting on the wall regarding the inevitability of global warming and the worst behavior of humans.

disembodied personality in search of host writes: My job is to keep him fighting the Christians. He seems too nice to Phat, though. I need to get together with Phats demon to see if we can keep them hating each other.

Edited by Phat, : attributing demon with hypothetical argument

Maybe you just think that you are spook-free.

Oh, I know I am. I have proof.

The archbishop, John Wester, of the Archdiocese of Santa Fe, which covers catholic church operations in my area, has a protection order out against me requiring I stay more that 1000 ft from any structure owned or operated by the Archdiocese if that structure contains any statues or stained-glass windows.

The problem is that when I enter such a place all the statues get up screaming and crash through the stained-glass windows to get away. It was costing the archdiocese a fortune in replacements every time I went to a wedding or a funeral. So, now I can't go.

If I were not demon free the statues would recognize my fellow traveler as one of their own and not freak out. At least that's what the exorcists tell me. There is nothing there to exorcise.

I, myself, am the power of reality, able to vanquish to oblivion any gods or demons with just a mere thought and that really scares the b'jesus out of the statues.

I was pissed a while ago, can't remember why, but just for the relief I drove up to the front door of a church one night and just parked there listening in delight to the screams and crashing coming from inside. Best part was watching mother mary in her white gown and blue shawl screaming her own Hail Marys while high-steppin' it high speed through the planting beds scattered throughout the parking lot. Glorious.

I did promise to not do that though. Now I'm feeling guilty. I am a bad non-demon.

AZ writes: The evidence you THINK you have involves a hand-scratched and much-embellished compendium of ancient myths with zero confidence in their authorship/legitimacy/efficacy and more centers on your emotional feelings, wants, desires, and wishful thinking.

I certainly wouldn't say that I have zero confidence in the likelihood of something behind the stories, traditions, and experiences of the Holy Spiritually minded. We are a bit exclusivist, but only because we believe that those of you who have bought into spiritual inclusivity and relative equivalence among religions and"spirits" are in error. I can't speak for all of *us* but I think that our budding Pastor, Raphael, has a lot of love for the rest of society that does not attend any church. (I'll let him speak for himself, though ) I DO think that religion and spirituality are here to stay as our planet and our global population moves into a critical time and challenge. There are a lot of people on this rock. Somehow, we all need to find a way to live and let live. GOD if God exists does not want us fighting each other. The demons surely do. (If they exist) And I think that your disdain for organized religion won't help you in the long run. If times get tough, more people will turn to religion during the lean times. It is in my opinion inevitable.

Edited by Phat, : spelling

Phat writes: I think that our budding Pastor, Raphael, has a lot of love for the rest of society that does not attend any church.

You're going to be really obsequious with your new guru aren't you?

I DO think that religion and spirituality are here to stay as our planet and our global population moves into a critical time and challenge.

Doom doom!

If times get tough,

Doom!

It is in my opinion inevitable.

Just wishful thinking Phat.

more people will turn to religion during the lean times.

Except exactly the opposite is happening. I'm sure you guys prayed for deliverance from the virus but it was the vaccine that is doing the job. I'm afraid like all your apocalyptical dreams it ain't going to happen. Just like Faith you're desperate for it aren't you? Begging for it. Why Phat?

You're going to wet yourself talking to your new apologist.

Tangle writes: You're going to be really obsequious with your new guru aren't you?

Hardly.

quote:

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Obsequious people are usually not being genuine; they resort to flattery and other fawning ways to stay in the good graces of authority figures. An obsequious person can be called a bootlicker, a brownnoser or a toady.

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Just so everyone knows, I have known Raphael in an internet conversational sort of way since he was just out of High School.

I think that *you* think that I will treat Raphael the same way I responded to ICANT in Message 1