When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?

Phat writes: What you guys don't understand is that God is under no obligation to save human lives.

And what you don't understand is that that is not the issue - of course a god can do anything he likes, he's a god.

But *your* god can't - he's a loving god according to you. A god that condemn the vast majority of humanity to everlasting torture is evil.

You can only defeat logic with better logic, nothing you've said so far is even rational. Do you have anything vaguely rational to say?

If not, just declare it a mystery and we're done.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Phat writes: What you guys don't understand is that God is under no obligation to save human lives.

Phat try to pay attention!

Really Phat, you can't be a stupid as your posts show.

The problem is that the God who is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen and that has foreknowledge is EVIL for creating a human that gets damned.

What you guys don't understand is that God is under no obligation to save human lives.

Then what good is he?

Humans are.

That's right!

God is useless and depending on any of the gods for anything is far more useless. We are on our own and we have to depend on each other for everything. For that matter, depending on the gods only makes matters far worse.

Welcome to atheism!

jar writes: the problem is that the God who is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen and that has foreknowledge is EVIL for creating a human that gets damned.

This argument is used to support Lucifer's defense that he was foreknown to become satan. It is NOT applicable to humans who in fact DO have a choice. But of course, you will say that I cant read and am making stuff up...

dwise1 writes: Then what good is he?(...)God is useless and depending on any of the gods for anything is far more useless. We are on our own and we have to depend on each other for everything. For that matter, depending on the gods only makes matters far worse. Welcome to atheism!

Atheism assumes that humans are untainted by any suggestion of a spiritual war(original sin) and that satan, as well as God, are simply human mythos and fully made up. Thus I would expect you to defend your argument based on those conclusions.

Tangle writes: f course a god can do anything he likes, he's a god. But *your* god can't - he's a loving god according to you. A god that condemns the vast majority of humanity to everlasting torture is evil.

We are not condemned if we in fact have a way out. You can dismiss it all as a goat herder story but you cant argue that God is evil. Through Jesus Christ God defeated evil. You of course still have the argument as to why (hypothetically) God allowed Lucifer to become Satan but were I you, I wouldn't use that argument to defend humans or Satan. If the apologetic beliefs are in any way true, both the fallen angel and the Creator of all seen and unseen exist.

Phat, you are simply posting utter nonsense while refusing to even try to address what I and others actually post.

Stop it!

Phat writes: You can dismiss it all as a goat herder story but you cant argue that God is evil.

Several of us have done just that and you've failed to find a single coherent argument otherwise. You're lost try google.

But of course, you will say that I cant read and am making stuff up...

Or you are just repeating standard apologetics nonsense.

Atheism assumes that humans are untainted by any suggestion of a spiritual war(original sin) and that satan, as well as God, are simply human mythos and fully made up.

Atheism doesn't assume anything.

By the way, back when I was a Christian, I did not accept the doctrine of original sin. I saw that doctrine as making God out to be evil.

Stop it!

No, jar, please. Don’t ask him to stop.

This is too entertaining on a human level. This is one of THOSE human conversations with so many inputs. Those that reveal the deeper scars religion creates in the human psyche.

Don’t ask him to stop. You guys are one of my favorite examples of a poison that infects the human mind and a lot of its antidote.

I'll leave it to y'all to figure which is which.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

From Message 150

jar writes: To try to tie this discussion back to the topic, "Original Sin" is a concept in Christianity even if not strongly held by all chapters of Club Christian, and yes, genetics and upbringing and intelligence and experience and culture and society and the law and likely things I have not mentioned can all "motivate" (as opposed to being the "motive") behavior. However as a Christian I also believe that we have a duty, a responsibility, to always try to do what is right for others even when that may be difficult, unpleasant, counter to our desires, and regardless of whether our motivation (as opposed to "motive") is conscious, unconscious, within our control, out of our control, genetic, "Original Sin", "The Fall", "I'm depraved on account of I'm deprived" or any other possibility.

So does this mean that in your eyes, people such as myself should, if we claim to be Christian, suck it up and pay the bill? Even if the world passes us by? Even if we become the Butlers, Gardeners, and Servants of other cultures?

If so, that is a hard teaching. Ringo even takes it a step farther and declares that anyone who claims to be a Christianshould essentially sell all that they have in order to help a world where most do not believe in Jesus. That is hard teaching!!

jar writes: As a human we have control over our behavior within certain limits. Yes, it is possible to alter behavior by surgery, drugs, illness, experience, but those are abnormalities and often can be treated. That does not change the fact that I believe I am charged to try to do what is right for others even when that might not be best for me or what I "want" to do.

And finally...that is a hard teaching!

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Congratulations. You’ve just discovered that it isn’t easy to actually follow Jesus. Which says a lot about Christianity.

You’ve just discovered that it isn’t easy to actually follow Jesus. Which says a lot about Christianity.

What does it say about Christianity? It is my belief that no one can do what is required. We need God's grace to do what is required. Ringo has argued otherwise, saying that the early church did it. He fails to see how spoiled the modern church is, however. It is not normal human nature to give up everything that one has simply to do the right thing. What I mean is that it is one thing to do as jar does and help the neighbor or the local grocery store. It is quite another to give up every material thing that you have or sacrifice your time when you too have a life.

You’ve just discovered that it isn’t easy to actually follow Jesus.

Especially when you are actually convinced that He is real. To be honest, I know that ringos argument is basically correct. Though I would argue that Jesus told the rich young ruler something specific to his problem with priorities, I can't argue against the basic charge that we all should consider others better than ourselves.

My gripe with ringo is that he exempts himself from the charge that he claims I should follow. If Jesus is real and is who the apologists say He is, everyone should follow His commands...not just believers.

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What does it say about Christianity?

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That is isn’t about following Jesus. If it was, you’d know this stuff already.

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It is my belief that no one can do what is required. We need God's grace to do what is required.

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That is no excuse for not trying. And if you were saved, shouldn’t you have God’s grace?

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It is not normal human nature to give up everything that one has simply to do the right thing. What I mean is that it is one thing to do as jar does and help the neighbor or the local grocery store. It is quite another to give up every material thing that you have or sacrifice your time when you too have a life.

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And you complain about a lot less than that. Blows to national pride come hard to you.

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Especially when you are actually convinced that He is real.

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That should make it easier, not harder.

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To be honest, I know that ringos argument is basically correct. Though I would argue that Jesus told the rich young ruler something specific to his problem with priorities, I can't argue against the basic charge that we all should consider others better than ourselves.

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I think that your priorities are even more focussed on money. And the last sentence is badly written and wrong. You should consider others as much as you do yourself - and remember that there are those who are worse off than you.

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My gripe with ringo is that he exempts himself from the charge that he claims I should follow.

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If he doesn’t claim to be a Christian he is exempt - in the sense that he does not believe that he is a follower of Jesus.

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If Jesus is real and is who the apologists say He is, everyone should follow His commands...not just believers.

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In practical terms everyone who believes that Jesus is real (and not just in the sense that there was a person behind the stories) should follow him. Just as those who believe that Mohammed or Joseph Smith were genuine prophets should follow their teachings. Those that believe otherwise may be wrong and may regret it, but they are not being untrue to their professed belief.

Have you ever read the Bible Phat?

Where does it say that everything will be easy?

Did God build the Ark?

Did God build the graineries?

Did God harvest the grain?

Who had to go gather the manna and catch the quail (ever try hunting quail).

Phat the bill will always get paid; the issue is how to pay it. We cannot avoid that fact.

But because we have been trying to avoid paying the bill, the bill just keeps getting bigger and bigger with far more serious pain coming due.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

PK writes: In practical terms everyone who believes that Jesus is real (and not just in the sense that there was a person behind the stories) should follow him. Just as those who believe that Mohammed or Joseph Smith were genuine prophets should follow their teachings. Those that believe otherwise may be wrong and may regret it, but they are not being untrue to their professed belief.

Unfortunately it seems that far too often the leaders whether priests or prophet or elder or father or pastor or imam do not teach the followers what is actually found in their religious texts, creeds, books or scrolls. The current crop of Christian Apologetics are a great example.

It's understandable since most of them seem to be selling a product and so the adage "Sell the sizzle rather than the steak" triumphs.

As Phat points out, whether we are talking about the Christian or Muslim or Buddhist or Hindu or Taoist faith, the actual message is all too often a Hard Teaching and that is not an easy thing to sell.

It's much easier to sell salvation if you don't have to actually do anything to get it.

jar writes: f God is the creator of all, seen and unseen, and has foreknowledge the individual has no choice.

Nonsense. The more I think about it the more I think your conclusion is (possibly) wrong. The individual makes their choice. (By what they do in life and by God examining their heart (motives and intentions) and they send themselves to whatever destination they will go after death. The fact that God could know that destination in no way means that God was evil for foreknowing their damnation. The fact is, they had a clear choice and they lived it.

You cant play these mind games of God having to be responsible for a human's freely chosen outcome.

Full Stop.

Did God give each and every human ever born the opportunity and means to repent?

Did God offer a solution for what some CCoI refer to as original sin?

Is it possible that our life is a test? In any given test, does everyone pass?

Do we even hypothetically know if damnation itself is the final destination for a given creation? (apart from Lucifer)
The point is what the character of GOD actually is. The point is not the simple mythos stories that say that if you don't attend church and give your money and labor to them you will fail.

I think that you are essentially arguing against the God of classical apologetics and the CCoI. But then again, you have taught that we create the God that we worship and believe in and market.

Im here to tell you that the God I market gives you ample opportunities to answer the charge and to complete your destiny. If you were to someday end up damned, it would be your own fault...not His. And keep in mind that the only creature in my hypothetical that we know or suspect ends up damned is the Fallen Angel of classical apologetics. If you want to indict God and defend him(Lucifer aka satan), knock yourself out.

There is no possible way to defend the actions of that God OR justify the fate of the victim.

There is also at this point in time no way to predict the destination of the victim. The argument assumes that we know. We do not.

Edited by Phat, : clarification

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
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“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).