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Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 586 of 668 (887972)
08-28-2021 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 583 by jar
08-28-2021 7:19 AM


Re: what does the Bible say?
jar writes:

Phat the bill will always get paid; the issue is how to pay it. We cannot avoid that fact.

But because we have been trying to avoid paying the bill, the bill just keeps getting bigger and bigger with far more serious pain coming due.

The issue is more than that. The issue is who we owe it to, why these hypothetical lenders even need to be repaid, and whether or not they also owe a bill just as we do. Perhaps the charge that you speak of many times is a form of every human owing other humans.

There is no group of humans that must be singled out as responsible for this bill of which you speak. I know for a fact that the US Government and the Federal Reserve are responsible for inflating the "bill" to over 27 trillion dollars. I can tell you right now that it is far from clear to whom that bill is addressed.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 583 by jar, posted 08-28-2021 7:19 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 589 by jar, posted 08-28-2021 9:26 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33409
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 587 of 668 (887973)
08-28-2021 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 585 by Phat
08-28-2021 9:10 AM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes:

The fact that God could know that destination in no way means that God was evil for foreknowing their damnation.

Nonsense Phat; that God is evil for creating that person!

You can lie about the God you market until hell freezes over so keep on keeping on.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 9:10 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 590 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 9:29 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 588 of 668 (887974)
08-28-2021 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 582 by PaulK
08-28-2021 3:45 AM


The Bill Collector
PaulK writes:

And you complain about a lot less than that. Blows to national pride come hard to you.

quote:
Especially when you are actually convinced that He is real.

That should make it easier, not harder.

The only way that I would give up all that I had in order to pay a huge bill that the Federal Reserve and my own government create and inflate every day is if Jesus Himself told me that giving everything up was how this bill would be repaid. I would rather be thrown in jail rather than pay for their reckless spending, stimulus, and attempts to keep the stock market at record highs. And I would stand before God and say the same thing.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 582 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2021 3:45 AM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 600 by ringo, posted 08-28-2021 12:11 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33409
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 589 of 668 (887975)
08-28-2021 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 586 by Phat
08-28-2021 9:20 AM


Re: what does the Bible say?
Phat, you really are totally clueless about everything.

Honestly Phat, you don't know shit!


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 586 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 9:20 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 591 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 9:31 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 590 of 668 (887976)
08-28-2021 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 587 by jar
08-28-2021 9:24 AM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
jar writes:

Nonsense Phat; that God is evil for creating that person!

Again, you are defending Lucifer for being allowed to choose autonomy. Humans have a choice. The ones who die suddenly without having known of a choice will not end up damned. People such as you and I will be judged based on what we do, could have done, and were consciously aware that we should.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 587 by jar, posted 08-28-2021 9:24 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 593 by jar, posted 08-28-2021 10:59 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 591 of 668 (887977)
08-28-2021 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 589 by jar
08-28-2021 9:26 AM


Re: what does the Bible say?
It is telling that what I say angers you. Are you that sure of what you believe and have learned?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 589 by jar, posted 08-28-2021 9:26 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8200
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 592 of 668 (887978)
08-28-2021 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 585 by Phat
08-28-2021 9:10 AM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes:

The individual makes their choice. [...] The fact that God could know that destination in no way means that God was evil for foreknowing their damnation. The fact is, they had a clear choice and they lived it.

Can you explain how the billions of people that were born before Christianity was invented had a choice? According to you, they are in hell.

As are all those billions born in non-Christian countries.

Where's the choice Phat? How does that work? Is it the work of a loving father?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 9:10 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 596 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 11:43 AM Tangle has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33409
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 593 of 668 (887979)
08-28-2021 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 590 by Phat
08-28-2021 9:29 AM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
No Phat, I do not choose to defend Lucifer.

Stop lying.

If the God has foreknowledge and created Lucifer then that God is evil.

Period.

Full stop.

And Phat, you don't anger me rather you disappoint me. You can only be pitied.

Edited by jar, : respond to Phat next silly posting.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 590 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 9:29 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5789
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 594 of 668 (887980)
08-28-2021 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 581 by Phat
08-28-2021 3:18 AM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
What does it say about Christianity?

Christianity is supposed to be hard.

If you are not finding it hard, then you are not a real Christian.

Especially when you are actually convinced that He is real.

You are not convinced that he is real. If you were really convinced, you would be striving to follow his teachings. Instead, you argue against that.

You are a fake Christian. Martin Luther King was a real Christian. He fought hard to do the real stuff, spent time in prison, and was eventually assassinated. But your Christianity is fake. Most of American Christianity is fake.

Wake up. Stop trying to fool yourself.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 581 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 3:18 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20219
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 595 of 668 (887981)
08-28-2021 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 574 by Phat
08-27-2021 4:26 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Biblically, what do we know about Satan? Here are all the Bible verses that Faith Gateway says are about Satan:

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

Isaiah 14:12 How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning! 
How you are cut down to the ground,
 You who weakened the nations!”

Revelation 12:11 We also learn in the Bible that Satan is a dangerous enemy. He is a serpent who can bite us when we least expect it. He is a destroyer

Ephesians 6:11...He has great power and intelligence, and a host of demons who assist him in his attacks against God’s people

Hebrews 2:14 Since we, the children, are all creatures of flesh and blood, Jesus took on flesh and blood, so that by dying He could destroy the one who held power over death—the devil.

Matthew 4:1 The Spirit then led Jesus into the desert to be tempted by the devil.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus was tempted in every way, but in the end, Jesus said to Satan, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

Luke 10:17-19 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.”

John 8:44 “You are just like your true father, the devil; and you spend your time pursuing the things your father loves. He started out as a killer, and he cannot tolerate truth because he is void of anything true. At the core of his character, he is a liar; everything he speaks originates in these lies because he is the father of lies.”

Matthew 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Ephesians 6:11 Our job as believers is to, “Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes.”

1 Peter 5:8-9 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

Now let's examine this claim you made about Satan:

Phat writes:

This argument is used to support Lucifer's defense that he was foreknown to become satan.

Where in the above Biblical passages does it say that Lucifer "was foreknown to become Satan"?

You can dismiss it all as a goat herder story but you cant argue that God is evil.

So though God has wiped out entire nations, and once even killed almost every living thing on Earth, he's not evil. How many murders would God have to commit before you deemed him evil?

Through Jesus Christ God defeated evil.

Since you can't deny that evil still exists in the world today, how can you claim JCG defeated evil?

You of course still have the argument as to why (hypothetically) God allowed Lucifer to become Satan but were I you,...

Where in the above Biblical passages does it say that God allowed Lucifer to become Satan?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by Phat, posted 08-27-2021 4:26 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 596 of 668 (887982)
08-28-2021 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 592 by Tangle
08-28-2021 10:44 AM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Tangle writes:

Can you explain how the billions of people that were born before Christianity was invented had a choice? According to you, they are in hell.

As are all those billions born in non-Christian countries..

Message 590
Phat writes:

Humans have a choice. The ones who die suddenly without having known of a choice will not end up damned.

I have no idea if anyone is in Hell apart from the fallen angels for which it was ostensibly created. And as I have said before, that was no fault of God. In order to believe this (what you call a mythological fairy tale,) as I have said before God can only be held responsible for allowing the angels to fall.

And in that context, I could care less. They failed to make the grade. And Angels cannot repent.

Gods only crime, even given that the fallen angels exist, is in setting hell up. Some could argue that God should have been nicey nice towards everything He created!!!

So should we blame God for allowing guns to exist? How about Nuclear weapons? After all, if He were a loving character we wouldn't even have to hunt for our food.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 592 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2021 10:44 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 601 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2021 2:02 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 597 of 668 (887983)
08-28-2021 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 579 by Phat
08-27-2021 11:56 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes:

So does this mean that in your eyes, people such as myself should, if we claim to be Christian, suck it up and pay the bill?


That's what Jesus said.

Phat writes:

Even if the world passes us by?


Jesus said that YOU should pass the world by.

Phat writes:

Even if we become the Butlers, Gardeners, and Servants of other cultures?


Don't aggrandize yourself. Jesus portrayed you in the pigsty begging for a corn cob.

Phat writes:

If so, that is a hard teaching.


Yup.

Phat writes:

Ringo even takes it a step farther and declares that anyone who claims to be a Christianshould essentially sell all that they have in order to help a world where most do not believe in Jesus.


No. I don't advocate any such thing. I simply point out that Jesus advocated exactly that.

Phat writes:

That is hard teaching!!


Yup. It's the straight and narrow way.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 579 by Phat, posted 08-27-2021 11:56 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 602 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 9:15 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 598 of 668 (887984)
08-28-2021 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 581 by Phat
08-28-2021 3:18 AM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes:

Ringo has argued otherwise, saying that the early church did it.


The early church did it. (Note that Ananias and Sapphira were killed for not doing it.) The disciples did it, the lady with two mites did it, the widow who fed Elijah did it. And even if those are made-up stories, we have historical evidence that monastic groups (of various religions) do it to this day.

Phat writes:

He fails to see how spoiled the modern church is, however.


What? That's exactly what I'm doing, pointing out that the modern church is spoiled, ruined by apologetics. Since when is being spoiled an excuse for anything?

Phat writes:

Though I would argue that Jesus told the rich young ruler something specific to his problem with priorities....


No, you've never been able to argue that. You've made an assertion with no rationale whatsoever.

Phat writes:

My gripe with ringo is that he exempts himself from the charge that he claims I should follow.


I don't say you "should" follow it. I say you would follow it if your "belief" in Jesus had any substance.

And yes, of course I am exempt from following the instructions of somebody who doesn't exist. That's obvious. I don't know why you keep bringing it up.

Phat writes:

If Jesus is real and is who the apologists say He is...


As everybody is trying to tell you, the apologists are dead wrong. Their story isn't even self-consistent.

Phat writes:

... everyone should follow His commands...not just believers.


Again, that's just nonsense. You don't follow the instructions of people you don't believe in. Why should everybody else?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 581 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 3:18 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 599 of 668 (887985)
08-28-2021 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 585 by Phat
08-28-2021 9:10 AM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes:

The more I think about it the more I think your conclusion is (possibly) wrong.


Confirmation bias.

Phat writes:

Did God give each and every human ever born the opportunity and means to repent?
Did God offer a solution for what some CCoI refer to as original sin?


Those questions are irrelevant. The question YOU need to answer is, "Did God dig the tiger trap?"

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 9:10 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 600 of 668 (887986)
08-28-2021 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 588 by Phat
08-28-2021 9:25 AM


Re: The Bill Collector
Phat writes:

The only way that I would give up all that I had in order to pay a huge bill that the Federal Reserve and my own government create and inflate every day is if Jesus Himself told me that giving everything up was how this bill would be repaid.


You're conflating two different things. Nobody is asking you to give up everything you have to pay off the national debt. The national debt has nothing to do with what Jesus told you to do.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 9:25 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
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