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Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8200
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 601 of 668 (887987)
08-28-2021 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 596 by Phat
08-28-2021 11:43 AM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes:

Humans have a choice. The ones who die suddenly without having known of a choice will not end up damned.

Pick 'n Mix Christianity eh?

It's called the Fate of the Unlearned. Depending on which random version of Christianity you grew up in you're either damned or you have a chance.

Fate of the unlearned - Wikipedia

The largest cult - Catholics - have people damned unless baptised Catholic but there are some slippery get-out clauses. If God is Catholic I think it could go either way for you Phat. Are you a betting man?

Whereas I, an atheist, am baptised Catholic so I reckon I have as much chance as you. This religion stuff is complicated isn't it? Need a damn (?) good lawyer.

Because you guys just make up the rules as you go along, you can have whichever version suits you.

Gods only crime, even given that the fallen angels exist, is in setting hell up.

Sounds like you think it a minor slip. Hitler's only mistake was gassing a million Jews! Oops!

Some could argue that God should have been nicey nice towards everything He created!!!

er, yes... (are you completely mad?)

So should we blame God for allowing guns to exist? How about Nuclear weapons?

Of course! He's the creator of all things is he not?

After all, if He were a loving character we wouldn't even have to hunt for our food.

Do they hunt in Heaven? Did they in Paradise? Why is it necessary for animals to kill other animals to survive? Was this the best your small god could do?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 596 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 11:43 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 606 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 10:36 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 613 by Percy, posted 08-29-2021 11:44 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 602 of 668 (887990)
08-28-2021 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 597 by ringo
08-28-2021 11:46 AM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
ringo writes:

Jesus portrayed you in the pigsty begging for a corn cob.

Wait a minute! Jesus portrayed the Prodigal Son as the one begging for a corn cob. In that analogy, the Father welcomed his destitute son home with open arms after the son had squandered his inheritance.

The other parable you use is the Rich Young Ruler. Evidently, you think that when Jesus talks about what He tells one individual to do, it applies to all of us.
So how many other ways does Jesus portray me? Am I a rich young ruler who needs to sell all I have? Or am I a destitute son with no money who misses the life he had at his Fathers house?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by ringo, posted 08-28-2021 11:46 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 603 by nwr, posted 08-28-2021 9:28 PM Phat has responded
 Message 616 by ringo, posted 08-29-2021 2:19 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5789
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 603 of 668 (887991)
08-28-2021 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 602 by Phat
08-28-2021 9:15 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
So how many other ways does Jesus portray me? Am I a rich young ruler who needs to sell all I have? Or am I a destitute son with no money who misses the life he had at his Fathers house?

You will have to work that out for yourself.

However, "Love thy neighbor" is supposed to apply to everyone. And the parable of the sheep and the goats (Matt 25) is intended for everyone. And those already demonstrate your failings.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 9:15 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 605 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 10:25 PM nwr has responded

  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 604 of 668 (887992)
08-28-2021 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 584 by jar
08-28-2021 8:30 AM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
jar writes:

As Phat points out, whether we are talking about the Christian or Muslim or Buddhist or Hindu or Taoist faith, the actual message is all too often a Hard Teaching and that is not an easy thing to sell.

It's much easier to sell salvation if you don't have to actually do anything to get it.

First of all, I do not believe that the truth is relative. Granted it seems arrogant and exclusivist to believe that the religion I happened to be raised with and was taught is the closest path to absolute truth, but I digress. Honesty is the best policy and I would imagine that we will be judged not only on what we *do* vs what we could have done but on our honesty regarding our beliefs in common with our actions.

|If it is indeed true that I will never gain points by ignoring what the character of Jesus says in the book, I will be judged accordingly.

As for when the End Times are and how we would know, I think it is wiser to think of ourselves individually as having a set amount of time alive here on Earth and that if there is in fact a judge, He will deal with us at that point in time after we pass on. As to whether He knows what I will choose, how I will act and think, and the charge that I have been given...quite frankly I could care less. I most certainly will never say He is evil for having foreknown my destiny although it can be argued that He only knows those whom He accepts. To the others He merely says "depart from me I never knew you." Thus I can finally put that argument to rest. He knows those who are His. He does not know anyone else.

And I can state that I believe that He does not only know Christians. He knows honest people of every faith, including atheism, who have lived their lives to the best of their abilities. As you once said, "the Judge will have perfect knowledge of both (what we do and what we could have done)


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 584 by jar, posted 08-28-2021 8:30 AM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 608 by PaulK, posted 08-29-2021 2:53 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 617 by ringo, posted 08-29-2021 2:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 605 of 668 (887993)
08-28-2021 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 603 by nwr
08-28-2021 9:28 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
nwr writes:

However, "Love thy neighbor" is supposed to apply to everyone. And the parable of the sheep and the goats (Matt 25) is intended for everyone. And those already demonstrate your failings.

Is it a sin to love my family and close friends and perhaps my country before I start loving everyone in S.America or Africa? Is that not basic human nature?

And just because I rant my carnal and insecure feelings here at EvC does not mean that I don't help people. I will admit that I live in fear of losing my material possessions or my life so in that sense you are correct in your assessment that I could be classified as a phony Christian.

I will defend the fact that I am honest before you and before God Who hears and knows everything. And for the record, I highly doubt that more liberals will end up in Heaven than will Conservatives.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 603 by nwr, posted 08-28-2021 9:28 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 607 by nwr, posted 08-29-2021 12:30 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 618 by ringo, posted 08-29-2021 2:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 606 of 668 (887994)
08-28-2021 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 601 by Tangle
08-28-2021 2:02 PM


Tangled Up Hypotheticals
The largest cult - Catholics - have people damned unless baptized Catholic but there are some slippery get-out clauses. If God is Catholic I think it could go either way for you Phat.
That's silly. God is no more Catholic than He is Protestant or Buddhist. God is simply God...Creator of all seen and unseen and Jesus Christ is His human character.
Are you a betting man?
Unfortunately yes...this is one of the addictions I struggle with.

Whereas I, an atheist, am baptized Catholic so I reckon I have as much chance as you.
Chance does not exist. God does not play dice with the universe.
This religion stuff is complicated isn't it? Need a damn (?) good lawyer.
Jesus Christ is our defense attorney. Hint: Plead guilty. You will get a lighter sentence!

Because you guys just make up the rules as you go along, you can have whichever version suits you.
What we humans imagine may or may not have a correlation with the actual truth and reality. This includes all scientific evidence. We can only know what is evident once it happens.

Phat writes:

God's only crime, even given that the fallen angels exist, is in setting hell up.

Sounds like you think it is a minor slip. Hitler's only mistake was gassing a million Jews! Oops!
Evil needed to exist to give us a choice. If you had a kid and commanded him to stay inside, he would have no free will were the outside to not exist. He would only truly have free will if he was given the power to disobey you. Your whole idea of God being put on trial due to His ultimate responsibility for...well, everything...is hardly a relevant argument if He in fact exists. You either fall on the Rock or the Rock falls on you!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 601 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2021 2:02 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 619 by ringo, posted 08-29-2021 2:31 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5789
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 607 of 668 (887996)
08-29-2021 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 605 by Phat
08-28-2021 10:25 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Is it a sin to love my family and close friends and perhaps my country before I start loving everyone in S.America or Africa? Is that not basic human nature?

Aren't Christians suppose to strive to do better than basic human nature

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 10:25 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16962
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 608 of 668 (887998)
08-29-2021 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 604 by Phat
08-28-2021 10:19 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
quote:
Granted it seems arrogant and exclusivist to believe that the religion I happened to be raised with and was taught is the closest path to absolute truth…

And it is even more arrogant to expect everyone to act as if your beliefs were true. And yet that’s what you do. You don’t recognise that you should follow your beliefs and other people should follow theirs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 10:19 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8200
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 609 of 668 (887999)
08-29-2021 3:17 AM


I wonder why we bother?

Phat can't see the argument so can't answer it, yet we keep trying. I reckon we're as daft as him.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 610 by jar, posted 08-29-2021 7:21 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 612 by Phat, posted 08-29-2021 11:36 AM Tangle has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33409
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 610 of 668 (888000)
08-29-2021 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 609 by Tangle
08-29-2021 3:17 AM


Oh, Phat can see the argument but refuses to consider it since the only possible conclusion is that the God marketed by the majority of Club Christian is evil and that to actually follow Jesus teachings is hard.

That ain't sizzle.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 609 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2021 3:17 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 611 by Phat, posted 08-29-2021 11:30 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 611 of 668 (888001)
08-29-2021 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 610 by jar
08-29-2021 7:21 AM


Seeing The Arguments Of Our Opponents
And what jar erroneously believes is that God is a human creation. He simply can't understand praying in communion with and not simply TO God. He finds comfort in the BCP, which I do agree with. He has logically and rationally defined God based on what he has read, and mocks far too many Christians. Maybe it is because so many of them supported Trump and the Republicans. Maybe because they are hypocrites. Hard telling. Maybe he was schooled in evidence and logic, reason, and reality so much that he chose his path and shunned the paths I have seen.

Most of you here are very similar in this. A kind empathetic secular humanism coupled with membership in a liberal church where you can think for yourself is very appealing to those who otherwise would be atheists.

And I am no poster child for the truth. NWR points out my shallowness.

But jar....seriously...I believe what I believe and don't believe that God is either created by humans or different characters in the good book.

Your evidence stands, but you missed the whole relational thing. (You always ask how it is possible.) I am likely worse off, for as ringo says, I fight the charge that following Jesus must be difficult.

My first job is to get my health back and my blood sugars down.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 610 by jar, posted 08-29-2021 7:21 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 612 of 668 (888002)
08-29-2021 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 609 by Tangle
08-29-2021 3:17 AM


Daffy Duck
Phat can't see the argument so can't answer it, yet we keep trying.
Oh I see the argument. I don't answer it because I honestly feel you are blinded to reality. Granted I have no objective evidence nor will I ever. What I actually do is question your arguments. I have to realize that you don't see what I see.

I reckon we're as daft as him.
Replies to this message:
Well at least your blood sugar is under control. Mine is dropping....9.8% last time I checked as I had a toe amputated Friday.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 609 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2021 3:17 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 614 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2021 11:57 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 632 by dwise1, posted 08-31-2021 3:38 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 633 by dwise1, posted 08-31-2021 3:45 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 657 by Percy, posted 09-02-2021 11:12 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20219
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 613 of 668 (888003)
08-29-2021 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 601 by Tangle
08-28-2021 2:02 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Tangle writes:

Sounds like you think it a minor slip. Hitler's only mistake was gassing a million Jews! Oops!

It might be several times more than that.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Fix quote.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 601 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2021 2:02 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8200
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 614 of 668 (888004)
08-29-2021 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 612 by Phat
08-29-2021 11:36 AM


Re: Daffy Duck
Phat writes:

Oh I see the argument. I don't answer it because I honestly feel you are blinded to reality.

I'm blinded *by* reality. But really Phat, it doesn't matter what you think I am, you need to answer the question for your own sake. Just so you know you can - or not. Quit deflecting.

What I actually do is question your arguments.

What you do is ignore the question, then blather on about something else.

as I had a toe amputated Friday.

Jesus ... no wonder you're away with the fairies. Do what the bloody doctors tell you; not the whacky quacky ones, the real ones.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by Phat, posted 08-29-2021 11:36 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20219
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 615 of 668 (888005)
08-29-2021 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 569 by Phat
08-27-2021 12:12 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes:

And if he has foreknowledge that ISIS will commit a suicide bomber attack at the Kabul airport that will kill 13 American troops and at least 45 Afghanis and he permits it to happen, then he is evil.

What you guys don't understand is that God is under no obligation to save human lives.

If you say so, but in that case he evil.

The fact that you label Him as evil tells me that you have another spirit within your logic.

Yes, I have another spirit within me, one God apparently does not possess. It's called the spirit of compassion and mercy and humanity.

The same vibe that tells you He is evil is itself evil incarnate. I know that sounds whacky.

Sure wacky, but also just a bald declaration with no basis in fact. It seems more like a gut reaction: "You insulted my God, so I'll insult you." You're not really having a discussion with the people here. You're just making a random series of unsupported assertions that have little to do with the posts you're replying to.

But you have never been a believer due to lack of objective evidence....as if everything in the universe needs objective evidence before humans can call it a reality.

Well, duh.

If we still want to explore hypotheticals,...

I don't think you know what that word means.

...maybe our next question is why I can believe in a God with no objective evidence and why such a God would want to be so vague.

Why would you believe in anything that has no objective evidence, particularly something that is so inconstant and that has been the target of flim-flam since the beginning of time.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by Phat, posted 08-27-2021 12:12 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 635 by Phat, posted 09-01-2021 1:46 PM Percy has responded

  
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