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Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4702
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 631 of 668 (888046)
08-31-2021 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 630 by ringo
08-31-2021 12:09 PM


Re: Tangled Up Hypotheticals
You lump the "liberal" Christians who agree with me in with the Hindus and the Mormons and the other heathens, don't you?

I have a copy (recorded on cassette tape) of Orson Scott Card's classic "Secular Humanist Revival Meeting" presentation from the 1980's, a classic exposure of Radical Religious Right hypocrisy. The format is a Southern Baptist fire-and-brimstone sermon (he's from one of the Carolinas) sprinkled liberally with calls of "Can you hear me? Am I speaking loud enough?" (punch line at the end is that he cannot possibly speak loud enough for those hypocrites writing their anti-America laws to hear him, "But they can hear you!" as a call for the audience to rise up and let their voices be heard).

He is a Mormon science fiction author (eg, Ender's Game). Sadly, he has since then disowned the "Revival Meeting", saying that it is no longer needed. Word is that church elders had gotten to him and pressured to silence him.

In that presentation regarding school prayer, he said something like all the Protestant schools would have those little children saying Protestant prayers, and all the Catholic schools would have them saying Catholic prayers, and all the Mormon schools would have them saying Mormon prayers, and all the New York City schools would have them praying all day to every god you ever heard of. And every single prayer would be a blasphemy! To support that, he cited an Old Testament story by name which I'm not familiar with, but I had once killed all "Letters to the Editor" debate about school prayer for a full two years by citing that Jesus had taught against such a practice of public displays of prayer as being nothing but hypocrisy (see that letter here -- re-reading that letter, it is not the letter which quoted Jesus from the Gospels, so apparently not the letter that killed school prayer advocacy for two years; sorry, it's been about four decades after all).

Around that part, Card pointed out that, despite the fundamentalists saying that Mormons are not Christians, Mormons are Christian -- they just believe in a different version of Jesus. Mormons really live their faith and they give far more than any fundamentalist ever would, far more than any fundamentalist preacher would ever dare ask for.

No, I am not a Mormon nor am I particularly sympathetic to them beyond basic Scouting respect for the beliefs of others -- though they have earned antipathy for their intimate role in the virulent religious discrimination committed by Boy Scouts of America, Inc. But the "true Christian" attitudes toward the many "not really Christian" denomination is nothing short of hypocrisy. And anybody who has actually read the Bible (or even nothing more than the Gospels) knows full well what Jesus thought of hypocrites. Surely, in the wording of the Gospels, those hypocrites "shall have their reward" (ie, Eternal Damnation).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by ringo, posted 08-31-2021 12:09 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4702
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 632 of 668 (888047)
08-31-2021 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 612 by Phat
08-29-2021 11:36 AM


Re: Diabetes
9.8% last time I checked as I had a toe amputated Friday.

A couple we knew in later college (after our first BAs (in German and French, respectively), I enlisted and we both went on to earn further degrees, Computer Science and Elementary Education, respectively). She befriended an instructor who lived in married student housing (crowded quonset huts -- they had a Christmas party in which guests had to arrive and leave in shifts). He had diabetes and he had done a presentation on diabetic foot care in which he wore a foot costume with a hole for his face. That was the first that I had ever heard of that issue for diabetics. Fast forward to the 1986 comedy, Nothing in Common, teaming young Tom Hanks with Jackie Gleason. At the end, son Tom looks down at father Gleason's feet and sees the black of the gangrene setting in; Gleason's character was diabetic and wasn't taking care of himself.

My mother developed diabetes later in life. She had had polio as a child, so she had a lifetime of pressing ahead and being active and doing what everybody else would despite her polio. When she had had a series of minor strokes and was found to need by-pass surgery, her inherent bravado from polio mislead the surgeon into thinking that she was stronger than she actually was. She survived the actual surgery, but died in recovery. The surgeon was genuinely surprised at how fragile her body actually was despite her strong presentation.

My older sisters blame diabetes for our mother's death. The disease attacks the entire body, all the organs. It weakens everything. It is not something to be shrugged off, especially now that you're minus a toe.

 
In the meantime, here's a sea shanty from Acapella Science about Dr. Banting, the Canadian doctor who developed insulin therapy. Nobel them all!

BTW, the student who has produced a series of Acapella Science videos (Watch them! You'll like them! I cannot hear the originals without substituting in his words.) is himself Canadian.

Despite your recent echoing of white supremicist "white replacement theory" in which nefarious forces (ie, "the Jews) are trying to replace whites with non-whites -- refer back to that early-Trump neo-Nazi demonstration with tiki torches shouting "The Jews will not replace us!"), do please take in this piece of Jewish wisdom from the Pirke Avoth, the Sayings of the Fathers:

quote:
If I am not for myself, who will be?
If I am only for myself, what am I?
If not now, then when?

Be for yourself now. Nobody else can be.

Edited by dwise1, : changed the subtitle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by Phat, posted 08-29-2021 11:36 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 640 by ringo, posted 09-01-2021 3:29 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4702
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 633 of 668 (888048)
08-31-2021 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 612 by Phat
08-29-2021 11:36 AM


Re: Daffy Duck
Duplicate of my Message 632 somehow happened. So I have myself initiated cleanup protocol.

Edited by dwise1, : Duplicate. Cleanup protocol.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by Phat, posted 08-29-2021 11:36 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 634 of 668 (888051)
09-01-2021 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Percy
08-25-2021 1:41 PM


Re: Gods responsibility for everything and the judgement of such
Percy writes:

Those holding false beliefs will always have an impact. Right this very minute we have major problems with people who don't believe covid is real or that the vaccine is a government plot to sterilize or implant chips or that Trump won the election or that everyone who's not white should go back where they came from or that Sandy Hook was a hoax or that the liberals are running a pedophile sex ring out of a pizza house and on and on.

The way to stop wallowing in false beliefs is to require evidence for what you believe and to say "I don't know" a lot more often.

Agreed. I really don't know what is true anymore.

I will say that I do resist government interference and control in areas such as how much a person could be allowed to withdraw from the bank or how many ways can legally be implemented to tax us.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by Percy, posted 08-25-2021 1:41 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 635 of 668 (888052)
09-01-2021 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 615 by Percy
08-29-2021 12:25 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Percy writes:

Why would you believe in anything that has no objective evidence, particularly something that is so inconstant and that has been the target of flim-flam since the beginning of time.

Because I think and believe for myself and not for what some group of people tell me I should believe in. At least not your group of people. You guys have no problem with abolishing organized religion and letting what you would believe to be a fair and impartial government---be it national or even global---distribute from each according to his ability to each according to their need.

I think I am Libertarian.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 615 by Percy, posted 08-29-2021 12:25 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 636 by nwr, posted 09-01-2021 2:08 PM Phat has responded
 Message 658 by Percy, posted 09-02-2021 11:49 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5789
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 636 of 668 (888053)
09-01-2021 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 635 by Phat
09-01-2021 1:46 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
You guys have no problem with abolishing organized religion and letting what you would believe to be a fair and impartial government---be it national or even global---distribute from each according to his ability to each according to their need.

You are spouting right wing lies.

Stop listening to their propaganda.

I think I am Libertarian.

No, you are a fool blinding following what the propagandists are telling you.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 635 by Phat, posted 09-01-2021 1:46 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 637 by Phat, posted 09-01-2021 2:10 PM nwr has responded
 Message 638 by Phat, posted 09-01-2021 2:13 PM nwr has responded

  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 637 of 668 (888054)
09-01-2021 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 636 by nwr
09-01-2021 2:08 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Percy writes:

We all, liberals, conservatives, and the entire spectrum in between, want our nation to be strong and prosperous, which requires that the individuals making up our nation also be strong and prosperous. Wishing some portion of our citizens ill only makes the nation as a whole weaker.

I agree. But I agree more with the libertarians than I do with the liberals.

Percy writes:

you've swallowed hook, line, and sinker the Republican story that treating other races fairly means that you'll suffer, and besides that other races are lazy, immoral, thieves who will rob the public coffers dry and then out-reproduce you to vote into office people who will make your situation even worse.

I am not a Republican. I agree that there is far too much Racism. My beef is with government control over my stuff, however. There is no way that Liberals and Libertarians will arrive at a consensus that I can see.

Percy writes:

traditionally the way governments reduce inflation is by raising interest rates to tamp down economic activity thereby reducing demand. This also tends to put downward pressure on wages and employment.

Based upon the opinions I follow, the Fed is trapped. If they raise interest rates, the interest on the debt skyrockets. Many of the Libertarians I follow say that they feel the interest rates will actually go negative.

Percy writes:

What we could do with less of is the claptrap someone's filling your head with.

Lets examine some of what I DO listen to.
The War on Cash Is Here, Gold Will Be the Only Road to Freedom Says Renowned Columnist

This Is How the Financial System Dies: Protect Your Money Now Urges Lynette Zang

The Great Reset And Your House

Neil Oliver: ‘The West is firmly in the grip, not of a virus, but of delusional madness’

Is The Dollar Going To Crash? Interview with @Peter Schiff


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 636 by nwr, posted 09-01-2021 2:08 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 647 by nwr, posted 09-01-2021 7:16 PM Phat has responded
 Message 661 by Percy, posted 09-02-2021 12:52 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 638 of 668 (888055)
09-01-2021 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 636 by nwr
09-01-2021 2:08 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
nwr writes:

You are spouting right-wing lies

Are the Libertarians Right Wing? If so, what's wrong with their philosophy? I do not want government control to be as overarching as it is becoming.

Look at my last post. Do you disagree that real interest rates could go negative? Do you disagree that it is inappropriate for the government/Federal Reserve to have such control over money and finance?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 636 by nwr, posted 09-01-2021 2:08 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 639 by nwr, posted 09-01-2021 2:46 PM Phat has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5789
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 639 of 668 (888056)
09-01-2021 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 638 by Phat
09-01-2021 2:13 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
I do not want government control to be as overarching as it is becoming.

No, it is not becoming overarching. You are swallowing the bullshit propaganda that is being fed to you.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 638 by Phat, posted 09-01-2021 2:13 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 641 by Phat, posted 09-01-2021 3:36 PM nwr has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 640 of 668 (888057)
09-01-2021 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 632 by dwise1
08-31-2021 3:38 PM


Re: Diabetes
dwise1 writes:

please take in this piece of Jewish wisdom from the Pirke Avoth, the Sayings of the Fathers:

quote:
If I am not for myself, who will be?
If I am only for myself, what am I?
If not now, then when?

I just saw that again the other day. I think it was in Leo Rosten's The Joys of Yiddish.

Here's another story he told, in my own words:

Goebbels, the Nazi, says to a Rabbi: "Teach me the Talmud."

Rabbi: I don't think you're ready to study Talmud."

Goebbels (indignantly): "Why not?"

Rabbi: "When a boy asks me to teach him Talmud, I ask him three questions to see if he's ready."

Goebbels: "So ask me the questions."

Rabbi: "All right. Two men fall down a chimney. One comes out dirty, one comes out clean. Which one washes?"

Goebbels: "The dirty one washes, of course."

Rabbi (shaking his head): "No. The dirty one looks at the clean one and he says, 'Amazing! We fell down a chimney and didn't get dirty.' So he doesn't wash. The clean one looks at the dirty one and says, 'We sure got dirty falling down that chimney.' So he washes."

Goebbels (unimpressed): "Ask me the second question."

Rabbi: "Two men fall down a chimney...."

Goebbels: "That's the same question."

Rabbi (shaking his head): "No. A different chimney. Two different men. Different points of view."

Geobbels: "Okay...."

Rabbi: "Two men fall down a chimney. One comes out dirty, one comes out clean. Which one washes?"

Goebbels (not to be fooled again): "The dirty one washes."

Rabbi (shaking his head): "No. The clean one looks at his hands and he says, 'Amazing! We fell down a chimney and didn't get dirty.' So he doesn't wash. The dirty one looks at his hands and says, 'We sure got dirty falling down that chimney.' So he washes."

Goebbels (getting angry: "Ask me the third question."

Rabbi: "Two men fall down a chimney...."

Goebbels: "That's the same question again!"

Rabbi (shaking his head): "No. Another different chimney. Two more different men. Two more different points of view."

Geobbels: "But... either one washes or the other washes. Those are the only two possibilities."

Rabbi: "No. Nobody falls down a chimney and comes out clean. If you couldn't figure that out on the first question, you're not ready to study Talmud."


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 632 by dwise1, posted 08-31-2021 3:38 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 641 of 668 (888058)
09-01-2021 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 639 by nwr
09-01-2021 2:46 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
nwr writes:

No, it is not becoming overarching. You are swallowing the bullshit propaganda that is being fed to you.

You ignored my questions. You are fixated on the idea that I am being fed lies. Do you want to hear a modern lie?
  • Inflation Is Transitory.
  • All Gods are characters in books or figments of our imaginations.

    The first one will be proven to be false within a year. The second one may take a bit longer.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 639 by nwr, posted 09-01-2021 2:46 PM nwr has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 642 by ringo, posted 09-01-2021 3:43 PM Phat has responded
     Message 646 by nwr, posted 09-01-2021 7:07 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 662 by Percy, posted 09-02-2021 1:37 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 19226
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.7


    Message 642 of 668 (888061)
    09-01-2021 3:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 641 by Phat
    09-01-2021 3:36 PM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    Phat writes:

    Do you want to hear a modern lie?
    All Gods are characters in books or figments of our imaginations.


    You've never been able to demonstrate that that isn't true. And you've never been able to demonstrate that YOUR god is real.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 641 by Phat, posted 09-01-2021 3:36 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 643 by Phat, posted 09-01-2021 3:50 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Inactive Member


    Message 643 of 668 (888062)
    09-01-2021 3:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 642 by ringo
    09-01-2021 3:43 PM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    ringo writes:

    And you've never been able to demonstrate that YOUR god is real.

    Well if you think i'm simply going to sell all that I have in order to prove it to you or anybody else, you will have a long wait.

    Besides I think I figured this out...you refused to pay taxes and justified it by giving money to your street friends. Then when the government came to seize the house...you justified walking away from it because you were listening to "the message". Problem solved. And now you want me to do the same thing if I had half a heart. Sucker


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 642 by ringo, posted 09-01-2021 3:43 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 644 by ringo, posted 09-01-2021 4:03 PM Phat has responded
     Message 645 by dwise1, posted 09-01-2021 4:57 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 663 by Percy, posted 09-02-2021 1:47 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 19226
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.7


    (1)
    Message 644 of 668 (888063)
    09-01-2021 4:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 643 by Phat
    09-01-2021 3:50 PM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    Phat writes:

    Well if you think i'm simply going to sell all that I have in order to prove it to you or anybody else, you will have a long wait.


    That wouldn't prove anything about God. It would only prove that your faith is real. Lots of people have faith in gods that aren't real. And lots of people have "faith" that isn't real.

    Phat writes:

    Besides I think I figured this out...you refused to pay taxes and justified it by giving money to your street friends.


    Wrong on both counts. I didn't "refuse" to pay taxes. I couldn't pay the taxes. I didn't have the money. There's a difference between giving a couple of dollars to the poor and paying thousands in taxes.

    And though they are my neighbors and my brothers in the way Jesus spoke of them, they're not my "friends", per se. They're strangers. I seldom see any of them more than once.

    Phat writes:

    Then when the government came to seize the house...you justified walking away from it because you were listening to "the message".


    Wrong. There was never anything to "justify". If I hadn't walked away I would have been thrown out.

    Phat writes:

    And now you want me to do the same thing if I had half a heart.


    It has nothing to do what I want. It's what Jesus wants.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 643 by Phat, posted 09-01-2021 3:50 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 654 by Phat, posted 09-02-2021 7:57 AM ringo has responded

      
    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 4702
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 5.1


    Message 645 of 668 (888065)
    09-01-2021 4:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 643 by Phat
    09-01-2021 3:50 PM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    ringo writes:

    And you've never been able to demonstrate that YOUR god is real.


    Well if you think i'm simply going to sell all that I have in order to prove it to you or anybody else, you will have a long wait.

    Your actually following the teachings and commandments of your god(s) would say nothing about whether any of those gods are real, but rather it would speak of whether you actually believe enough in those gods so as to have sufficient faith in them to do what they command and demand of you.

    I assume that you know the old joke about the "true believer" who went hiking, fell off a cliff, and ended up hanging there clutching desperately onto a tree root.
    He calls out to God to save him. The clouds part and he hears God's voice telling him, "Have faith in me, my son, and let go!" The "believer" pauses and then cries out, "Is there anyone else there? I need a second opinion!"

     
    I've been waiting for an opportunity to pass this on. I got the amazon link on Facebook from Ed Babinsky, a former extreme fundamentalist who has since written a collection of deconversion testimonials. The book is Ten Things Christians Wish Jesus Hadn't Taught: And Other Reasons to Question His Words; it almost seems to have been written for you in this ongoing discussion.

    The description written by the author reads:

    quote:
    For centuries the gospels have been cherished devotional literature, and under the guidance of preachers and priests, they’ve been understood as reliable depictions of Jesus. But even the most devout Christians stumble across sayings of Jesus that don’t sound quite right. In fact—if we’re honest—some of them are alarming. I discovered a few of these verses when I was a kid, but Jesus was our lord and savior, so I didn’t let it bother me too much.

    But the problem won’t go away, even if many of the faithful file these troublesome texts in a mental drawer marked “Too uncomfortable to think about.” In fact, the problem is much larger than many people suppose. In this book, you’ll find “things Christians wish Jesus hadn’t taught” categorized in ten chapters.

    How can this not be food for thought? What are the implications of this major downside of the gospels? It takes a certain level of bravery—frankly, curiosity and courage are required—to examine everything that Jesus taught. This book is designed to help with that adventure.


    Drawing from the three reviews of the book (each rating it with 5 stars):

    quote:
    This lucid, insightful, and concise book takes a unique approach to the problem of Christian faith. Biblical scholar David Madison approaches the reader in a spirit of empathy and generosity but also uncompromising honesty. More specifically, he approaches Christian readers on their own turf. In the first ten chapters he assumes, for the sake of argument, that the words attributed to Jesus in the gospels are accurate representations of his teachings. If we accept this premise, is Jesus truly the greatest teacher of all time? Do his words really match the image of the loving Savior we were told about as children in Vacation Bible School? The answers will shock a great many Christians who have never read the New Testament completely, carefully, and honestly.

    Some of these teachings are merely strange, unwise, or hopelessly impractical, like the admonition never to refuse anyone who asks you for a loan, the advice to ignore the basic human needs of food and clothing, or appeals to magical thinking. Others, however, are truly shocking and disturbing for anyone who believes in a Jesus of unconditional love and forgiveness. For example, Jesus teaches that we cannot be his followers unless we hate our closest family members, suggests that we should value devotion to him above life itself, and threatens eternal torture for anyone who fails to acknowledge his divinity and worship him. These are the Bible verses that seldom appear in Sunday School lessons or preachers’ sermons, yet they are the purported words of the Messiah. Madison tells of one devout believer who accused him of lying when he quoted Luke 14:26 for her. She simply refused to accept that Jesus could have said those words, though they were there in her own copy of the Bible.


    Of course, many Christians are so deeply committed to their faith that nothing will shake the scales from their eyes, and Madison obviously understands this. But he also knows, from his own experience, that there are intellectually honest Christians who struggle with doubt and that a deep, open-minded study of Scripture only makes the problem worse. This book is ideal for people who are on that difficult path. It takes courage to seek truth, wherever that journey leads, but this book will help.


    David Madison does a masterful job of setting up a monumental scare for Christian believers. Most of those folk, as I did when I was one, put blinders on and scurry right past certain bothersome passages of the New Testament (“I hope this isn’t what I think it is, so I’m not going to deal with it”), or ornately twist them around into something they aren’t (“If I can ignore what it seems to say and decide it says this, then I won’t be bothered by it”). If we must believe what Jesus said is “good” and “right,” then we have to find a way to make ourselves believe it. But Madison won’t let us do that. He makes it clear: This is what it says! This is what it means! This can’t be denied! Some of Jesus’s teachings are perplexing. Some alarming. Some repulsive, even. How ya gonna deal with that?


    While the book contains an excellent summary of counter-apologetics to Christian dogma, its main value is that it forces the reader to objectively look at the sayings of Jesus as recorded in the New Testament. Should one be able to read it without focusing on WHO said it but instead on WHAT is said, the only reasonable conclusion is that the words are consistent with a dangerous religious cult of misguided humans and not an all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful deity.



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     Message 643 by Phat, posted 09-01-2021 3:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
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