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Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
ringo
Member
Posts: 18100
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 106 of 190 (876001)
05-11-2020 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
05-11-2020 8:07 AM


Re: Phat's Blueprint In Defense Of A Last Days Scenario
Phat writes:

I will say, in my defense, that I am willing to examine other belief systems than my own.


No you're not. You refuse resolutely to discuss the idea that your apologists are liars.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 05-11-2020 8:07 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 05-11-2020 1:13 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 107 of 190 (876002)
05-11-2020 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by jar
05-11-2020 10:12 AM


Re: Our Reality and Gods Reality
jar writes:

Evidence of ANY Christian Prophecy of some End Times has ever been anything other than a con job.

Yes, we know that you believe this. Perhaps it is accurate to say that the con is in even attempting to establish evidence. Lack of objective evidence for the existence of God or other supernatural phenomena is as far as I know never going to happen.
jar writes:

... so far no one has ever provided anything more than vague nonsensical corny doomsday fantasies.

I disagree. While I can't provide any objective evidence, I have had experiences and I am not lying.

You are of course free to claim that apologetics and popular Biblical interpretations of Jesus returning, the world trying its best yet failing to achieve the necessary standard, and the rise of a one-world global government with humanist ideals devoid of any official belief in the God Whom created us and has a purpose for us as vague, nonsensical, and above all else your claim that its sole purpose is to sell (slang) religion for profit (as opposed to prophet ).

Its what you do and have done at EvC for nearly 20 years. I'm not saying that I absolutely 100% know anything that will happen in the future. I am saying that I believe that these scenarios are likely to occur. In addition, I am well aware that you have read the Bible, so I won't waste much time attempting to do anything other than to show the scriptures and writings that led the apologists to draw their conclusions.
The apologist which i will choose to use as an example for this discussion is Amir Tsarfati. I'm not saying that I trust this man any more than any other teacher, apologist, Pastor, or even salesman (such as you are), and I fully expect you to examine his ministry. (Yes, he too sells books.) Despite that fact, I don't believe that it is the main reason that he has a ministry. You are far too skeptical when you label every single apologist as a carny sideshow.

I have one of his books on Audible and have listened to it a couple of times.

In addition, I read a lot of unproven trash on the internet. I think that I am intuitive enough to dismiss most of it, but every once in a while I read something and a lightbulb turns on in my head. Those I will share here.
‘High likelihood of human civilization coming to end’ by 2050, report finds
The paper, produced by the Melbourne-based think tank the Breakthrough National Centre for Climate Restoration, is presented by the former chief of the Australian Defence Forces and retired Royal Australian Navy Admiral Chris Barrie.

The global warming crowd also sees a possible and quite likely crisis.

You say that you don't trust the apologists, right? Well, I don't trust the Chinese Communist Party, the secular European Union, Bill Gates, and to be honest, people who are actively opposed to God and Jesus even if He existed. You get a pass merely by claiming to be a believer, but I will continually challenge you (and likely misrepresent your position) time and time again as long as we both hang out at this website.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 05-11-2020 10:12 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 05-11-2020 3:40 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 108 of 190 (876003)
05-11-2020 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by ringo
05-11-2020 12:59 PM


Re: Phat's Blueprint In Defense Of A Last Days Scenario
ringo writes:

You refuse resolutely to discuss the idea that your apologists are liars.

Ok, lets discuss it. First off, why do you lump all apologists in the same liar camp? To accuse all of anyone of being dishonest is just plain unrealistic.

(That is unless you are attempting to push the argument that we *know* the evidence yet choose to ignore it, in which case I can say the same thing about you.)

So let's take my latest favorite apologist.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by ringo, posted 05-11-2020 12:59 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 05-12-2020 7:30 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 109 of 190 (876004)
05-11-2020 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by ringo
05-08-2020 4:27 PM


Re: 16 Years Later. Reflections On A Thought Process
ringo writes:

I don't think he's(Pope Benedict) afraid of "one world religion" as much as he's afraid that it won't be his.

You are damn right! A one-world religion would be a watered-down counterfeit to the truth. Most of this bunch at EvC likely would fall for that humanist crap also. Before we go there, let me share with you the type of thinking that likely will embrace such a humanist world religion. Most of you will support it--its evidence-based, scientific and transpersonal, and tangle will see it as a definite step up from the ancient mythos.
Daniel Schmachtenberger’s talk at Emergence


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by ringo, posted 05-08-2020 4:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by ringo, posted 05-12-2020 7:32 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 110 of 190 (876005)
05-11-2020 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
05-11-2020 1:04 PM


Re: Our Reality and Gods Reality
Phat writes:

You get a pass merely by claiming to be a believer, but I will continually challenge you (and likely misrepresent your position) time and time again as long as we both hang out at this website.

Please ask yourself why you NEVER actually address the CONTENT of what I post?

Please ask yourself why you NEVER actually support the CONTENT of what you post?

Please provide the evidence that supports an end of human civilization by 2050?

Is Climate change an issue only HUMANS can address?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 05-11-2020 1:04 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 05-11-2020 5:55 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 111 of 190 (876024)
05-11-2020 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by jar
05-11-2020 3:40 PM


Re: Our Reality and Gods Reality
jar writes:

Please ask yourself why you NEVER actually address the CONTENT of what I post?

Most of the time I think you are simply wrong. I won't get sucked into playing a game of "evidence" when interpreting Bible meanings. You already know how to frame issues, but I simply disagree with many of your conclusions, since they are usually unlike anything I hear from other believers. The fact that you dismiss the conclusions of the apologists so readily shows me that you frame the Bible according to how you see it, though you will claim that you are simply reporting what it says and have no agenda, (unlike the apologists).

Please ask yourself why you NEVER actually support the CONTENT of what you post?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but essentially what you are asking me to do is support the belief and assertions of the people whom I post. (or challenge them, one or the other) but that's not my job. I post what feels right to me. Sometimes I get it wrong, but I would argue that it is essentially what I believe to be happening.

Please provide the evidence that supports an end of human civilization by 2050?
Is there any evidence? All we basically have is what you claim all along---that we will get the world that we want. There are some of us (by us I mean Americans) who would go to war rather than give up their materialistic advantage. There are others, such as Pelosi and McConnell from what I hear, that would welcome globalism as long as they benefit from it. My intuition tells me that the Chinese Communist Party is a potential rival to American Dominance. I won't go so far as to claim that they initiated COVID-19, but I do believe that there are powers and interests globally that oppose the idea of American Nationalism and making our country great again since the way that we have historically done it is by exploiting others.

I believe that we are in the early stages of a global conflict of ideologies.

Is Climate change an issue only HUMANS can address?
Of course. Who else can address it? My beef with the idea of a one-world government (or pact) and a kinder gentler religion (or humanist belief) is that it is wrong to throw God away and have a consensus. If God wants to let everyone in the club (or pay the latter laborers the same as the early birds) that's on Him and not us. I am not a socialist. My problem, at least of my flesh, is wanting to remain special, favored, and set apart. I am not ready to sacrifice my position for the least of these, though I know that Jesus wants me to be less selfish and insecure.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 05-11-2020 3:40 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by jar, posted 05-11-2020 6:02 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 112 of 190 (876025)
05-11-2020 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Phat
05-11-2020 5:55 PM


Re: Our Reality and Gods Reality
So look at what you posted.

No where in any of that is any evidence or reasoning beyond restating what you believe.

Phat writes:

The fact that you dismiss the conclusions of the apologists so readily shows me that you frame the Bible according to how you see it, though you will claim that you are simply reporting what it says and have no agenda, (unlike the apologists).

And this is a great example of just what I posted above.

What I do is actually POST what is actually written in the Bible Stories. That's not a claim, it really is a fact. Others can simply check what I post by actually reading what is written in the Bible. I make no claims regarding any agenda; but instead try to stick to the verifiable facts. (unlike the Apologist I will gladly admit)

Why do you accept what the Apologists market when it contradicts what is actually written in the Bible other than your preference for the product the Apologists try to market?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 05-11-2020 5:55 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 05-12-2020 1:41 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 113 of 190 (876085)
05-12-2020 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by jar
05-11-2020 6:02 PM


Re: Our Reality and Gods Reality
jar writes:

Why do you accept what the Apologists market when it contradicts what is actually written in the Bible other than your preference for the product the Apologists try to market?

For one thing, I don't see every apologist as a used car salesman attempting to dump an easily sold product on an unwary buyer. We actually believe that we have met God. We don't need rigorous scientific evidence to verify that its God and not a bad burrito.

To your credit, you have taught me some good wisdom.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by jar, posted 05-11-2020 6:02 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 05-12-2020 2:37 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 114 of 190 (876099)
05-12-2020 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
05-12-2020 1:41 PM


Re: Our Reality and Gods Reality
Phat writes:

We actually believe that we have met God. We don't need rigorous scientific evidence to verify that its God and not a bad burrito.

LOL

How do you question and challenge and test those beliefs?

Yes, I don't doubt that you believe you actually met God, but yet you never explain how you determine that it is god and not a bad burrito or even more likely, Satan.

And once again, the actual topic is " When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?"

Do you ever plan on addressing the topic?

When do you plan on actually answering the quote from me you even included right above your tap dance?

Edited by jar, : No reason given.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 05-12-2020 1:41 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 05-13-2020 11:42 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18100
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 115 of 190 (876117)
05-12-2020 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
05-11-2020 1:13 PM


Re: Phat's Blueprint In Defense Of A Last Days Scenario
Phat writes:

First off, why do you lump all apologists in the same liar camp?


You have not been able to demonstrate any that are not in that camp. Please do so.

Phat writes:

That is unless you are attempting to push the argument that we *know* the evidence yet choose to ignore it...


We know you ignore the evidence. You have said many times that you will ignore any evidence that goes against your cherished beliefs.

Phat writes:

... in which case I can say the same thing about you.


No you can't. I have said many times that I will accept any evidence that backs up your beliefs.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 05-11-2020 1:13 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18100
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 116 of 190 (876118)
05-12-2020 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
05-11-2020 2:56 PM


Re: 16 Years Later. Reflections On A Thought Process
Phat writes:

A one-world religion would be a watered-down counterfeit to the truth.


All religion is a watered-down version of the truth - if there is any truth in them at all.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 05-11-2020 2:56 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Phat, posted 05-13-2020 11:45 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 117 of 190 (876160)
05-13-2020 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by jar
05-12-2020 2:37 PM


Re: Our Reality and Gods Reality
jar writes:

How do you question and challenge and test those beliefs?

I may question what it is that I feel and perceive but I dont deny Christs living presence by challenging it. We are to test the spirits, but we are not to question our proclaimed Faith and acceptance of God. We may well question any and all humans, however. Let God be true and every man a liar. God either exists or He doesnt. You seem to place a low priority on the idea of Communion with Him, choosing instead to run out the door and be a secular humanist do-gooder while stubbornly clinging to your badge as a member of the club.
But lets hear from the other side.
Zeitgeist pdf writes:

Likewise, this continuum also implies that there can be no
empirical “origin” of ideas. From an epistemological perspective,
knowledge is mostly culminated, processed and expanded through
communication amongst our species. The individual, with his or her
inherently different life experience and propensities, serves as a
custom-processing filter by which a given idea can be morphed.
Collectively, we individuals comprise what could be called a group
mind, which is the larger order social processor by which the efforts of
individuals ideally coalesce. The traditional method of data transfer
through literature, sharing books from generation to generation, has
been a notable path of this group mind interaction, for example.

Thus the thinking is not black and white in their view and does not depend on a Source other than the human collective and our interpretation and application of the content.
jar writes:

...yet you never explain how you determine that it is god and not a bad burrito or even more likely, Satan.

LOL. How is it that Satan would be more likely than God? If I am seeking the truth, and if Jesus proclaimed Himself to be the truth and John describes Him as the living word, how can satan even get in line ahead of our beloved Creator of all seen and unseen? I would worry more about those of you who see Jesus as a myth. Satan has your number on speed dial.
jar writes:

And once again, the actual topic is " When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?"

Do you ever plan on addressing the topic?

First off, nobody knows the day or the hour, but we can discern the seasons we are in. You claim that we need to elect the right leaders or we will get the world that we want. Which sounds about right, though the issue is far more complex than simply Left=good, Right=Bad. (or visa versa.) It is good and bad in the Left. It is good and bad in The Right. There is good and bad in the CCCP. And there is good and bad in the church. One thing I believe you got wrong in your theology, however, is that there is good and bad in God. God is represented to the Christian by the character of Jesus Christ. Satan had nothing in Jesus. So what if he wrecked the merchants slanging in the Temple? He alone had the authority to do that...just as you would have the authority to shoot someone in your Temple.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 05-12-2020 2:37 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by jar, posted 05-13-2020 12:17 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 118 of 190 (876161)
05-13-2020 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by ringo
05-12-2020 7:32 PM


Re: 16 Years Later. Reflections On A Thought Process
You would claim that the truth is found in evidence. I would challenge that and say that the truth is only found in humans and their inner motives and desires. Looking up old texts and claiming to know how the early believers think or how they arrived at their conclusions is a plot of the enemy, seeking to discredit the truth.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by ringo, posted 05-12-2020 7:32 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by ringo, posted 05-14-2020 11:36 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 119 of 190 (876163)
05-13-2020 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
05-13-2020 11:42 AM


Re: Our Reality and Gods Reality
Phat writes:

He alone had the authority to do that...just as you would have the authority to shoot someone in your Temple.

LOL

No Phat, I do not have the right to shoot someone in my temple. I would behave much better than the Jesus character in the story.

And once again, you simply post nonsense and word salad instead of addressing either the topic or what others post.

The question remains as always; "Yes, I don't doubt that you believe you actually met God, but yet you never explain how you determine that it is god and not a bad burrito or even more likely, Satan."


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 05-13-2020 11:42 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 05-13-2020 1:15 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 120 of 190 (876165)
05-13-2020 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Chiroptera
06-23-2004 6:42 PM


Re: no vagueness
Chiroptera in 2004 writes:

A Distant Mirror by Barbara Tuchman. A description of Western Europe in the 14th century. Wars, plagues, famine...if there was going to be the apocalypse, that would have been it.

Im going to have to read that book. I read The Guns Of August by that same author.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Chiroptera, posted 06-23-2004 6:42 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Chiroptera, posted 05-17-2020 9:56 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
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