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Author Topic:   Where Faith Comes From in the "moderate" Christian religions
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 102 of 132 (514013)
07-03-2009 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Peg
07-03-2009 7:27 AM


quote:
you can't observe evolution happening...apparently it happens over hundreds of thousands if not, millions of years. So, apart from Rrhains bacteria, how are you 'observing' evolution?
Since you know that indirect observation is used in science what makes you think that direct observation isn't used ?
quote:
so are you saying that evolution disproves a creator?
No, he's saying that the evidence that supports evolution is evidence against fiat creation.
quote:
If related evidence and not direct observation is an adequate basis for scientists to accept what is invisible, why is that consideration not given to those who believe in a Creator. Afterall, they use a similar basis for accepting what they cannot see.
It would be - if they could live up to that standard. But they can't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Peg, posted 07-03-2009 7:27 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Peg, posted 07-03-2009 7:45 AM PaulK has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 106 of 132 (514017)
07-03-2009 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Peg
07-03-2009 7:45 AM


quote:
I've asked what direct observations are used and the only answer so far is from Rrhain who says that because bacteria has the ability to change and adapt, it proves evolution
I know that you restricted the observations you were interested in to direct observations. I am asking why you did it, when you clearly know that science doesn't make any such restriction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Peg, posted 07-03-2009 7:45 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Peg, posted 07-03-2009 8:17 AM PaulK has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 113 of 132 (514030)
07-03-2009 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Peg
07-03-2009 8:17 AM


quote:
because there doesnt seem to be a clear cut answer. The scientific method 'was' at one time about observing and experimenting, now its simply observing and experiments are not always necessary (especially for evolution)
There is a clear cut answer. Science was NEVER restricted to experiments. Experiments are just a way of generating observations - a very good way of doing so - but it is observation that is important. Newton extrapolated from his experiments relating to gravity, to using gravity to explain planetary motion. But all our information on planetary motion comes from observation, not experiment.
quote:
Yet some say that evolution can be reproduced in a lab, others say you cant directly observe it, others say its the fossil evidence that proves it (of which there are huge gaps)
You are confusing things. Bacterial evolution can be reproduced in a laboratory (but even there creationists will argue that the observation isn't direct enough !). Other aspects of evolution obviously cannot. There's no contrradiction there.
The fossil evidence DOES provide strong evidence for evolution (although there is plenty more from living organisms). To mention just one example, the discovery of Tiktaalik. Evolution predicted that such a creature should have existed. Geology indicated where there was a good chance to find it. They went and looked - and it was there. While that is an especially impressive example, we are still discovering more intermediate fossils. There will probably always be gaps - there are limits to the fossil record - but we can be confident that the gaps will be smaller than they are now.
quote:
Also, why is it perfectly acceptable for science to have beliefs in things they cannot see based on indirect observations, yet creationists cannot? This is confusing to me, its like saying, I can use this tool to prove my point, but you cannot use it to prove yours.
The answer is simple. Creationists do NOT use the same tool. Nobody is preventing them from using it. Except themselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Peg, posted 07-03-2009 8:17 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Peg, posted 07-03-2009 9:00 AM PaulK has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 117 of 132 (514037)
07-03-2009 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Peg
07-03-2009 9:00 AM


quote:
lets say that 'tool' is observation, why can observation not be used in the study of a creator?
You just don't get it, do you ? Nobody is saying that it can't be used in principle.
quote:
why is the observation of the physical universe an evidence for evolution but not for creation?
Are you asking why the evidence happens to favour evolution ? Or are you still going on about some imaginary double-standard ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Peg, posted 07-03-2009 9:00 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Peg, posted 07-03-2009 9:24 AM PaulK has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 120 of 132 (514042)
07-03-2009 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Peg
07-03-2009 9:24 AM


quote:
the latter...i believe the evidence of the universe and life favors creation.
OK. There is no such double standard. Is this the third or fourth time I've had to tell you that ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Peg, posted 07-03-2009 9:24 AM Peg has not replied

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