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Author Topic:   chromosome counts
like god
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 49 (97462)
04-03-2004 9:54 AM


I searched the site and did not find any information on Ron Wyatt. It seems odd that the fact that he claims to have found the blood of Jesus which literally landed on the mercy seat in a hidden cave under Golotha is missing from this discussion board.
Incredible even for a believer, the impact of having "live" white blood cells with only 24 chromosomes seems would be an excellent candidate for discussion. I took the time to pray about this and apply the concept back to Genesis at Adam and Eve Prophecy. A genetic model of creation and sin seems to line up Biblically and appears to answer a number of questions such as why people lived hundreds of years.
My actual question for discussion is centered on whether it is possible that salvation can have a physiological measureable impact on the body? If it is true that Jesus and Adam had 24 chromosomes and that Adam lost his Y to Eve, and if the course of sin led to sex with a fallen angel to produce 46 chromosomed individuals, is it possible that the "work" of salvation produces a chromosome change in individuals? Strange as it sounds, the only instince of chromosome counting in humans appears to occur in pregnancy testing. Biblically we are born to sin and the sin of our mother, Eve. But if Jesus died for all past, present, and future sins, is it possible that the blood of believers is different than the blood of non-believers?? I know that there is a lot of DNA testing done, but how many chromosome counts have actually been done on humans?
Of course none of the information presented here negates any of God's soverign plan, but it would be kinda cool to see if the elect are genetically different. Of course any evidence could also be spun to suggest that anyone with 24 chromosomes would have to be a Nephillum.
Are there any MDs out there that can provide me with answers regarding the nature of chromosome counting?
Please be gentle as this is my first post.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Denesha, posted 04-03-2004 9:59 AM like god has not replied
 Message 5 by Sylas, posted 04-03-2004 11:46 AM like god has not replied
 Message 6 by Coragyps, posted 04-03-2004 12:01 PM like god has not replied
 Message 10 by coffee_addict, posted 04-03-2004 11:54 PM like god has not replied

  
like god
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 49 (97469)
04-03-2004 10:32 AM


Nothing. Still is God's sovereign plan. But he said in His word that He would confirm it in His creation. As a believer, I expect to see the evidence as confirmation of my own growth as an overcomer. Not finding the evidence does nothing to dispell my faith, but confirmation is an additive.
If such a find were made known, it could actually do harm as well as good. It is one thing to follow a person into a church every Sunday and label the person a Christian. It is a wholly different scenario when you prove someone's standing by submitting a blood test. We have already seen how the star of David can be applied as a reason for committing genocide on a nation. If your blood tests 24, you go to the oven....
On the other hand, if you haven't heard the "call" by now (post world wide phenomenon of "The Passion of the Christ"), then this might be your last chance before the breaking a few of the last seals that separate you from eternal judgement.
Smiles. I just keep doing what I am doing as I have the faith and obedience to believe that someone is watching my actions.

Replies to this message:
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like god
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 49 (97470)
04-03-2004 10:37 AM


oops. And thanks for the welcome. By the way, I tried to create a tag to the site with my prophesy on Adam and Eve. The address is Page not found | wifiministries.org ~ "World In Focus International Ministries" for anyone who wants to read about haploids and diploids.

  
like god
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 49 (97489)
04-03-2004 12:37 PM


"H" or haploid. I like that.
I recognize that there are genetic diseases resulting in abnormalities or death, but my understanding is that the first 22 pairs of information are in fact pairs. If the information is redundant than a being could live without it? How often are chromosome counts done on "normal" individiuals ie ones that have not gone to the doctor with a defect or ailment? Has anyone ever looked??

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Sylas, posted 04-03-2004 1:08 PM like god has not replied
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like god
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 49 (97712)
04-04-2004 5:59 PM


The premise that we are dealing with is that Jesus and Adam had 24 chromosomes and were "like" in pattern. If this combination produced a genetically superior individual that lived longer and was healthier than today's 46 chromosome beings, then there would be a genetic plan for salvation to back up the Biblical event. The premise of the document also suggests that the first sin ie sex was designed from the beginning to create 46 chromosomed individuals and that satan's goal was to keep us from knowing the extent of genetic code so that we would not have proof of the existence of life after death. The "confustion" and genetic drift offered by mixing a gene pool would be just the ticket to throw off a scientific type community that could study the genetic code from a molecular point of view.
The genetic diseases of today are not evidence of a divine plan. They offer skepticism to the athiest. Moreover we know that genetically different animals can combine to form viable offspring such as the horse and the donkey mating to form mules. The key is not in understanding that the mule is not fertile, but that different chromosomed animals can combine their DNA.
The real proof would be finding individuals alive today that possess the 24 count. Genesis speaks of Nephillum at the time of Noah and after. Presumably the Nephillum did not drown, or that there were additional falls from Heaven. It would be interesting to do some random samplings to see if there is proof of the Nephillum on earth in this time period. 24 chromosome beings could be evidence of Nephillum, of being saved and/or none of the above. If I understand the thread thus far, no one has suggested that chromosome counts are ever done on "normal" people. I know I have never had my chromosomes counted.
On the other hand, the blood of Jesus may simply be the original genetic code and could be used as a fiter for sifting sin from righetousness-a dialysis of the soul, body and spirit if you will.

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by wj, posted 04-04-2004 7:50 PM like god has not replied
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like god
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 49 (97740)
04-04-2004 10:14 PM


ok. I will concede that I probably have 46 chromosomes although I would like to sign up for the high school class mentioned by Sylas.
It would also be cool to measure physiological changes to individuals after salvation. Not that there has to be anything, it would just be cool.
Now as for fantasies about Adam, I don't believe there is anything fundamentally different about getting from Adam's 24 chromosomes to our 46 then there are getting from apes to man.
And if there are Nephillum present today, they most assuredly would be avoiding chromosome tests. And by the method suggested herein the natural course of mating would produce 46 chromosomed individuals.

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 04-04-2004 10:40 PM like god has not replied
 Message 18 by Sylas, posted 04-04-2004 11:12 PM like god has not replied

  
like god
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 49 (97759)
04-04-2004 11:37 PM


gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them.
I am believing you are not asking for a discussion on the birds and the bees. lol. All the Bible study guides I have seen refer to the Nephillum as fallen angels. I have found no reference to women as gender and the scripture above suggest that Nephillum were male. Therefore, like a horse and a donkey, the offspring of 46 chromosome humans with 24 chromosome Nephillum would produce 46 chromosome beings. The Nephillum had to have either special properties to survive the flood or that there are additional falls post flood. And Nephillum would not necessarily have the same life span limited to 120 years.

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Sylas, posted 04-05-2004 12:44 AM like god has not replied

  
like god
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 49 (97784)
04-05-2004 1:17 AM


I do not know of a Hebrew term for "chromosomes". I don't know of a term for "Space ship" or "microscope" for that matter either. I am simply trying to apply the premise of Wyatt's 24 Chromosome "living" blood back to Genesis. Romans speaks of Jesus as being a "pattern" of Adam. Perhaps the revelation is at the level of chromosome count.
And if the finding is applied back to original sin, the nature of death becomes the emergence of 46 chromosomes and would reveal truth in the word.
The Bible does not speak of chromosomes but the implications make sense if the whole idea works from a genetic point of view. Your position is that it does not make sense based on existing genetic diseases.
I buy that. And my knowledge of genetics leads a lot to be desired. I remember studying some simply pea characteristics in high school biology. And from the simple idea that there is redundant information, there is a plausible hypothesis that the pairs could have been independent at one time. A genetic model suggests that the emergence of Jesus was necessary as there were no more prophets that had ears to hear from God after John the Baptist. If there would have been a Levite or phophet other than John in his generation that could have heard from God, then the hole plan of salvation would have been corrupted. If the Jews would have "known" that Jesus was the Christ they would not have hung him on a tree to be cursed by God. He would not have shed his blood for you and I and there would be no hope.
I am not attempting to "add" to the Bible. I am simply trying to apply knowledge based upon known facts. I didn't test the blood Wyatt found, but his video of the test results and the very idea that Christ's blood would be found on the mercy seat is pretty compelling. And if anyone is led to salvation as a result it is all good. In fact, if any of it is done in the name of Jesus then it is good by definition.
If the 24 chromosome blood is a hoax, then it will make a great book or screen play. Every time I start talking about it, people open their Bible. Prophecy is fulfilled by becoming wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
The idea that we might be changed physiologically as a result of salvation does not hold much merit based on the pieces you have presented. That would make some great fiction as well.
I appreciate your comments. They provoke a better understanding of the issues.
blessings,

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Sylas, posted 04-05-2004 1:58 AM like god has not replied

  
like god
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 49 (97829)
04-05-2004 9:56 AM


There seems to be quite a bit of controbersy regarding Wyatt as per the sites you have listed. The idea that Christ was genetically different via a virgin birth creates a great premise for looking back at Genesis. Without any proof the speculation is great fiction.
Even without Wyatt's proof the premise lends itself to answers to a number of questions:
If Eve was "taken" from Adam, then where did her other X come from?
If Adam and Eve were biological twins, how do we account for genetic variety?
How many chromosomes did Jesus have if His birth was truly from a virgin?
How were Biblical people able to live for hundreds of years?
Was there a physiological consequence for the sin in the garden?
A genetic model would seem to be a viable model if it worked by design in Biblical times. You have made a pretty good case for the interdependency on pairs to prevent such distinct being now, but is the interdependency the result of the sin? If there is a 1 in 10,000 chance for mules to produce offspring and "evolution" occurs in mules than a viable species may develop??
At least in theory is it possible that Adam and Jesus had 24 chromosomes? Or does the theory go away based on a hoax?

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Sylas, posted 04-05-2004 11:20 AM like god has not replied

  
like god
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 49 (98067)
04-06-2004 9:47 AM


The model being suggested was that Eve was formed from Adam. It was a subtraction, not an addition. Simple math. From 24 chromosomes to a twin with 23. She had sex with a fallen angel ie Nephillum. Satan had 24 so they created 46 chromosome babies as they were not "meant" to mate. Now Adam 23 minus the x and Eve minus the y could only create a recombinant of the original 24 producing all males. Females and Satan's line came from Eve's sin with Satan. As sin is propogated through the generations, by default the only way Adam's line is continued is that he or his son produce offspring from the women created from Satan's line. Interdependencies are created between the copeies of the chromosomes. And when the genes are corrupted enough to prevent recognition of the original pattern, it is reestablished in Jesus. There is no need to form a triploid or multiple lungs by Occum's razor.
I disagree with you that the Bible does not talk about chromosomes. It is centered on it. It is all about the blood! Eve gave the blood to satan by through the taking of her virginity. Jesus offered his blood for the redemption of the 46 chromosome species.
I don't know if Wyatt found anything other than a way to make money. I don't know if any evangelist finds anything other than a way to make money. But the plan of salvation and God's ability to harden hearts and reveal things hidden is enough to see the plausible model through the "idea" presented by Wyatt's claims.
Your additions of lungs or more chromosomes don't create a model that explains why Abel and Seth are in the image of Adam who was the image of God. Nor does it explain why Cain was killed even though he offered his first fruits to the Lord. A simple answer is that he was the offspring of satan and his "non perfect" set of 46 chromosomes was the result of grafting the perfect and the anti perfect. And the ultimate result of grafting will be the antigrafting. If the antichrist is cloned from the blood of Jesus, the 24 chromosome being will be able to wow scientist geeks like yourself and prove resurrection of the blood.
Proof will be in the pudding or blood in this case. Keep watching the Internet for the one who will come claiming he is Christ. If he has 3 lungs or 666 chrosomes, repent for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand.

  
like god
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 49 (98648)
04-08-2004 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by crashfrog
04-07-2004 3:13 AM


The premise is that Adam was 24 chromosomes. Eve was "pulled" from Adam. God copied the first 22 chromosomes and gave her Adam's "x". Adam was left with 23 chromosomes including the "y" leaving hime "male". Every mating of Adam + Eve reproduced the original 24. How would it be otherwise? No variety, all male boys that looked exactly like Adam as the 24 were an exact copy of Adam's original DNA. But there was another speicies on the planet, fallen angels. Satan, the serpent had 24 chromosomes. Like positive and negative charges that balance the universe, their 24 chromosomes were compatible but the antithesis to the original 24. The first mating produced the first 22 chromosomes from Eve and her "x". Satan gave 22 antithesis chromosomes plus his "y" to create Cain. But instead of a haploid in the image of God, this was a product of sin and Diploid. All Adam and Eve's children are male sons of God haploids by definition. All Eve's children are diploid via the antithesis genetic material from Satan. In order for Adam's second generation, he or his son have to perpetuate sin by mating with one of satan's women as women can only come from the line of satan and Eve to produce a diploid with an XX combination. Once diploid women are introduced into Adam's line, all further children are diploid. We are a product of sin.
Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
We have to be reborn to overcome ourselves as diploid
It is not necessary to use the haploid/diploid scheme other than if Wyatt happened on anything other than a lie, than the truth must be applied Biblically and Romans 8 suggests that Jesus was made in Adam's image and Adam was made in God's image. If Jesus was not 24 chromosomes than we simply state that the miracle switch was thrown to activate the Jesus within man's 46 chromosomes or Mary as the case may be. Either way genetic variety comes from satan otherwise we would have all been identical twins except for the sex.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by crashfrog, posted 04-07-2004 3:13 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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like god
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 49 (98673)
04-08-2004 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Dr Jack
04-08-2004 9:57 AM


Ok. We don't have any genetic evidence of the first generations unless we are going to count ape man. I will concede that the evolution of the species from Adam's generation has created a dependency on 46 NOW.
I will concede that the product of Adam and Eve were 46 chromosomed beings. God made Adam in His image by definition. He also has knowledge of good and evil, sexual reproduction. But he does not have a mate other than the church which is not a physiological connection. Therefore the generations could have progressed by sexual reproduction in the good old fashioned way of blood covenant or by nature of asexual reproduction like God by taking of the rib. God produced gametes before the sin as he already knew it was going to happen as He is the alpha and the omega.
With 46 chromosome babies from Adam and Eve as 23 haploid parents, we are still faced with the conclusion that all of Adam's line had to be boys until satan's blood was combined to form women. If Eve was 23 with X and Adam was 23 with Y, and all the gametes were formed from a copy of their genetic code at the time Eve was taken from Adam, then all the offspring would have had XY and resulted in boys.
We are still left with explaining how Seth and Abel were "the image" of Adam if this is supposed to be taken literally as genetic code. Although I agree that opposites would cancel, my point was that there may have been extra material that became additive as it was not intended in the original equation ie a result of sin.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 35 by Sylas, posted 04-08-2004 12:02 PM like god has replied

  
like god
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 49 (98707)
04-08-2004 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Sylas
04-08-2004 12:02 PM


We need to be careful of semantics. Image is a differnte word than likeness.
You state that Adam had daughters. The interpretation are the verbs and adjectives added to the original Hebrew. Literally Adam does not have the parts to have any children. Nor is it written that Adam only had relations with Eve. A daughter born of Eve and Satan and then having relations with Adam would create a line of daughters. Incest is a crazy thing when you only have a handful of people! Also if I have a son and he has a daughter, isn't the daughter of my line? Adam had other lines that developed into the wicked people destroyed in the flood, but the Bible speaks of the lines that have significance for carrying on the lines responsible for carrying the Word of God, literally if not genetically.
Game, set and match, only if you apply context to the facts that meet your conclusion!

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like god
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 49 (98773)
04-08-2004 7:25 PM


Ok. Wyatt may be a fake. But the idea of 24 chromosomes seems to line up Biblically although Sylas doesn't see the math. I have some fundamental issues with the thought that Adam and Eve produced all the genetic variety in the species. I am looking at how well a 24 chromosome theory fits into place. A couple of posts ago, I suggested the whole thing could work by turining on the miracle gene combination by the hand of God in 46 chromosomes, but the 24 thing brings a lot of answers into place. I happened upon antoher thread regarding the Exodus that seems to have some merit. I haven't read the whole thread, but it was based on Wyatt's claim. He might be a quack and a prophet.

Replies to this message:
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