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Author Topic:   chromosome counts
like god
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 49 (97462)
04-03-2004 9:54 AM


I searched the site and did not find any information on Ron Wyatt. It seems odd that the fact that he claims to have found the blood of Jesus which literally landed on the mercy seat in a hidden cave under Golotha is missing from this discussion board.

Incredible even for a believer, the impact of having "live" white blood cells with only 24 chromosomes seems would be an excellent candidate for discussion. I took the time to pray about this and apply the concept back to Genesis at Adam and Eve Prophecy. A genetic model of creation and sin seems to line up Biblically and appears to answer a number of questions such as why people lived hundreds of years.

My actual question for discussion is centered on whether it is possible that salvation can have a physiological measureable impact on the body? If it is true that Jesus and Adam had 24 chromosomes and that Adam lost his Y to Eve, and if the course of sin led to sex with a fallen angel to produce 46 chromosomed individuals, is it possible that the "work" of salvation produces a chromosome change in individuals? Strange as it sounds, the only instince of chromosome counting in humans appears to occur in pregnancy testing. Biblically we are born to sin and the sin of our mother, Eve. But if Jesus died for all past, present, and future sins, is it possible that the blood of believers is different than the blood of non-believers?? I know that there is a lot of DNA testing done, but how many chromosome counts have actually been done on humans?

Of course none of the information presented here negates any of God's soverign plan, but it would be kinda cool to see if the elect are genetically different. Of course any evidence could also be spun to suggest that anyone with 24 chromosomes would have to be a Nephillum.

Are there any MDs out there that can provide me with answers regarding the nature of chromosome counting?

Please be gentle as this is my first post.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Denesha, posted 04-03-2004 9:59 AM like god has not yet responded
 Message 5 by Sylas, posted 04-03-2004 11:46 AM like god has not yet responded
 Message 6 by Coragyps, posted 04-03-2004 12:01 PM like god has not yet responded
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Denesha
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 49 (97463)
04-03-2004 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by like god
04-03-2004 9:54 AM


Dear Like God, Welcome here.

From your post. If there is a difference, what will it change?

Denesha


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by like god, posted 04-03-2004 9:54 AM like god has not yet responded

  
like god
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 49 (97469)
04-03-2004 10:32 AM


Nothing. Still is God's sovereign plan. But he said in His word that He would confirm it in His creation. As a believer, I expect to see the evidence as confirmation of my own growth as an overcomer. Not finding the evidence does nothing to dispell my faith, but confirmation is an additive.

If such a find were made known, it could actually do harm as well as good. It is one thing to follow a person into a church every Sunday and label the person a Christian. It is a wholly different scenario when you prove someone's standing by submitting a blood test. We have already seen how the star of David can be applied as a reason for committing genocide on a nation. If your blood tests 24, you go to the oven....

On the other hand, if you haven't heard the "call" by now (post world wide phenomenon of "The Passion of the Christ"), then this might be your last chance before the breaking a few of the last seals that separate you from eternal judgement.

Smiles. I just keep doing what I am doing as I have the faith and obedience to believe that someone is watching my actions.


Replies to this message:
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like god
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 49 (97470)
04-03-2004 10:37 AM


oops. And thanks for the welcome. By the way, I tried to create a tag to the site with my prophesy on Adam and Eve. The address is www.wifiministries.org/adamandeve.htm for anyone who wants to read about haploids and diploids.
  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 3340 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 5 of 49 (97481)
04-03-2004 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by like god
04-03-2004 9:54 AM


like god writes:

I searched the site and did not find any information on Ron Wyatt. It seems odd that the fact that he claims to have found the blood of Jesus which literally landed on the mercy seat in a hidden cave under Golotha is missing from this discussion board.

We are happy to discuss almost any subject that people are willing bring up if they find it of interest. No-one has ever brought up Wyatt before. He is widely regarded as merely an embarrassment, even by creationists.

I've discussed this claim in other forums, however. Ron died a few years ago; but his many discoveries are recorded and discussed at "Bible Revelations". Ron was an amateur archaeologist who claimed to have made many dramatic discoveries, including Noah's Ark, the Ark of the Covenant, the cave of Machpelah where Abraham Isaac and Jacob and their wives lie buried, the true site of Sodom and Gomorrah, the real Mt Sinai, the route of the Exodus, remains of Pharoah's chariots drowned in the Red Sea, the cave where Jesus was buried, the exact site of the crucifixion, and even a sample of Jesus' own blood.

Incredible even for a believer, the impact of having "live" white blood cells with only 24 chromosomes seems would be an excellent candidate for discussion. I took the time to pray about this and apply the concept back to Genesis at Adam and Eve Prophecy. A genetic model of creation and sin seems to line up Biblically and appears to answer a number of questions such as why people lived hundreds of years.

You need to edit your html; your anchor had "onhref=", which should be "href=". I've fixed it in the quoted extract above.

The page you cite will not precipitate any revolution in genetics or theology. There are too many fundamental errors.

For example, the page refers to chromosomes as "haploid" or "diploid pairs"; and speaks of organisms (angels) who have 22 haploid sequences and one diploid sequence. In fact, the terms "haploid" and "diploid" refer to cells; not to the chromosomes individually. In humans, all cells are diploid (46 chromosomes, as 23 pairs) except the germ cells: sperm and eggs. These are haploid. (In fact, this is not quite true. Eggs are in a state of arrested meiosis; but that is getting a bit more technical than we really need here.)

The page also describes XY as distinct from YX. This is also nonsense; because there is no particular order of the chromosomes in a cell. The notion of reflecting the order as being a genetic distinction is wrong.

It is possible to have an extra chromosome, however. This is usually fatal and prevents a child from coming to term. There are some cases which can be survived. Down's syndrome, Klinefelter's syndrome, Patau syndrom, and Edward syndrome are all due to an extra chromosome. The last two are particularly serious, and usually result in miscarriage, or death in the first year.

A foetus can also lose a chromosome; but this is invariably fatal. The only exception is Turner syndrome, which results when a child has only one X chromosome, for 45 chromosomes in all. About 99% of such children do not come to term; a small number may survive, particularly if they are "mosaics" with some cells having the full complement. Turner syndrome results in an infertile female.

For more detail, see chromosomal Mosaicism at University of British Columbia.

The page you have cited speaks of living humans that are essentially haploid, but with one extra sex chromosome (either X or Y) to match another X. That is not possible. Humans need a full diploid complement to survive. In very rare cases a human individual might be missing one of the 46 chromosomes; and even then to survive they are most likely a mosaic, with some but not all the cells having this genetic damage. Such cases are infertile.

The notion that Adam and Eve were haploid is not a biblical or Christian notion, nor is it biologically possible. The writer of that page is indulging in imaginative speculation, but with no scientific basis it ends up a bit like a bad science fiction novel. Theology it is nonsense.

My actual question for discussion is centered on whether it is possible that salvation can have a physiological measureable impact on the body?

Not a genetic change, no. This is not possible. Genetic karyotype is fixed from birth.

If it is true that Jesus and Adam had 24 chromosomes and that Adam lost his Y to Eve, and if the course of sin led to sex with a fallen angel to produce 46 chromosomed individuals, is it possible that the "work" of salvation produces a chromosome change in individuals? Strange as it sounds, the only instince of chromosome counting in humans appears to occur in pregnancy testing. Biblically we are born to sin and the sin of our mother, Eve. But if Jesus died for all past, present, and future sins, is it possible that the blood of believers is different than the blood of non-believers?? I know that there is a lot of DNA testing done, but how many chromosome counts have actually been done on humans?

It is certainly not true that Adam, or Jesus, had 24 chromosomes; it is biologically nonsense. It is not possible to give a change to chromosome number of a living organism. Differences in chromosome number occur in individual cells as a result of errors in cell division.

It is not true that chromosomes are only counted in pregnancy. A chromosome count is not all that difficult, and it can be used to diagnose some of the conditions I mention above.

The rain falls on the just and the unjust; and the blood that flows in our veins is the same also. The changes that can take place for an individual when they become a Christian, or when they lose their faith, are not changes that show up in blood and certainly not in genetic karyotype.

Of course none of the information presented here negates any of God's soverign plan, but it would be kinda cool to see if the elect are genetically different. Of course any evidence could also be spun to suggest that anyone with 24 chromosomes would have to be a Nephillum.

Are there any MDs out there that can provide me with answers regarding the nature of chromosome counting?

Please be gentle as this is my first post.

Welcome aboard. I'm not an MD; but the information given is pretty straightforward. I hope it may be of some use....

Cheers -- Sylas


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by like god, posted 04-03-2004 9:54 AM like god has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Dr Jack, posted 04-08-2004 9:57 AM Sylas has responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5377
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 6 of 49 (97484)
04-03-2004 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by like god
04-03-2004 9:54 AM


Well, I have heard that the "H" in the expletive "Jesus H Christ!" does stand for "Haploid."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by like god, posted 04-03-2004 9:54 AM like god has not yet responded

    
like god
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 49 (97489)
04-03-2004 12:37 PM


"H" or haploid. I like that.

I recognize that there are genetic diseases resulting in abnormalities or death, but my understanding is that the first 22 pairs of information are in fact pairs. If the information is redundant than a being could live without it? How often are chromosome counts done on "normal" individiuals ie ones that have not gone to the doctor with a defect or ailment? Has anyone ever looked??


Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Sylas, posted 04-03-2004 1:08 PM like god has not yet responded
 Message 9 by Parsimonious_Razor, posted 04-03-2004 1:29 PM like god has not yet responded
 Message 11 by Lammy, posted 04-03-2004 11:59 PM like god has not yet responded

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 3340 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 8 of 49 (97495)
04-03-2004 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by like god
04-03-2004 12:37 PM


like god writes:

I recognize that there are genetic diseases resulting in abnormalities or death, but my understanding is that the first 22 pairs of information are in fact pairs. If the information is redundant than a being could live without it? How often are chromosome counts done on "normal" individiuals ie ones that have not gone to the doctor with a defect or ailment? Has anyone ever looked??

The information is not redundant; all chromosomes contribute to the proper workings of a diploid cell. A human cannot live with cells that only have 23 chromsomes; they need all 46. They can manage with an exrta chromosome; but only in exceptional cases.

Loss of a chromosome is very serious genetic damage, and except in very unusual cases indeed an embryo with a missing chromosome will not even come to term. It is like wings on an aircraft. They may be pretty much identical, but you still need both of them to fly.

The only chromosome which can be lost and a child still survive is the smallest chromosome of them all... the Y chromosome. This usually results in death as well; but survival may be possible, usually if the child is a mosaic, with some cells still having the full 46 and others having 45. This can result from an error in a cell division in the very early states of embryonic development.

Such damage remains severe, and the child will be infertile.

There are isolated reports of a child surviving with only one copy of chromosome 21; a couple of instances only.

Nobody has gone through to check the chromosome of every individual; but yes, people have looked at chromosomes of many ordinary healthy adults. There are many research projects which involve examining chromosomes. The objective is not just to count chromosomes; but to make some more detailed study. A haploid human would stick out like a beacon.

You do need both copies of all your chromosomes, even more definitely than you need both arms or both legs. We do look at and study chromosomes. There has been a lot of study into operation of cells and chromosomes, and yes, we can say without any shadow of doubt that a human being could not possibly live with only one copy of each chromosome.

Sorry; but your idea is wrong.

Best wishes -- Sylas

[This message has been edited by Sylas, 04-04-2004]


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Parsimonious_Razor
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 49 (97505)
04-03-2004 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by like god
04-03-2004 12:37 PM


They are not actually redundant. If you examine some of the most basic of genetics you will see lots of discussion about dominate and recessive traits, this is essentially telling you that the different chromosomes you have inherited from different parents actually have different genes, or alleles. The interaction of these different alleles is what forms your phenotype. With out the extra information you can't survive for long.

A full range of chromosome aberrations lead to horrific diseases and cancers. Test for chromosome number are fairly common in many diseases such myeloid leukemia which is often caused by the loss of chromosomes in the cancerous tissue. You will find many people with various chromosome number abnormalities in these groups (in the cancerous tissue), there have been many studies I have seen that have examined chromosome numbers in these groups. A review will show that even in diseased tissue chromosome number is usually 46, and when itís not its fatal.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by like god, posted 04-03-2004 12:37 PM like god has not yet responded

  
Lammy
Member
Posts: 3607
From: Chicago
Joined: 03-29-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 10 of 49 (97622)
04-03-2004 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by like god
04-03-2004 9:54 AM


I am speaking purely from a scientific point of view (I am an atheist).

If an embryo only has 24 chromosomes instead of 46:

(1) the embryo is immediately aborted naturally. There are not enough info for the embryo to develop into a fetus.

(2) by some miracle, if the embryo is not aborted, it will become a grossly deformed fetus possibly with missing body parts. The fetus will then die.

(3) if, by some miracle, the fetus does survive and is born with very very very serious serious serious health problems and disfigured. The child will not be able to survive for long after birth.

(4) if by some miracle the child survives and reaches puperty, he/she will be infertile. There are not enough chromosomes for meiosis to occur. Without meiosis, gametes (sperms and egg cells) can't form. In other words, the individual is as "anatomically impaired as a candle."

(5) if by some miracle the individual's sex organs can have meiosis taking place (which at this point I can't see how this is possible at all), the individual can only mate with other miraculous individuals who have 24 chromosomes in order to produce 24 chromosomed offsprings.

(6) Then, the whole process of miracles happen all over again.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by like god, posted 04-03-2004 9:54 AM like god has not yet responded

    
Lammy
Member
Posts: 3607
From: Chicago
Joined: 03-29-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 11 of 49 (97624)
04-03-2004 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by like god
04-03-2004 12:37 PM


quote:
I recognize that there are genetic diseases resulting in abnormalities or death, but my understanding is that the first 22 pairs of information are in fact pairs. If the information is redundant than a being could live without it? How often are chromosome counts done on "normal" individiuals ie ones that have not gone to the doctor with a defect or ailment? Has anyone ever looked??

People need all 46 chromosomes in order to survive, period. Even if someone who's missing a chromosome happen to survive, there would still be things seriously wrong with this individual.

Take females with only 1 X chromosome instead of 2. These females would have turner's syndrome. This syndrome includes but not limited to complete lack of menstruation or ovulation (sterility), webbed neck, shield chest, and below average height.

Since you argued that the first 22 pairs are just copies, what's wrong with taking the pair of X chromosomes into this account?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by like god, posted 04-03-2004 12:37 PM like god has not yet responded

    
like god
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 49 (97712)
04-04-2004 5:59 PM


The premise that we are dealing with is that Jesus and Adam had 24 chromosomes and were "like" in pattern. If this combination produced a genetically superior individual that lived longer and was healthier than today's 46 chromosome beings, then there would be a genetic plan for salvation to back up the Biblical event. The premise of the document also suggests that the first sin ie sex was designed from the beginning to create 46 chromosomed individuals and that satan's goal was to keep us from knowing the extent of genetic code so that we would not have proof of the existence of life after death. The "confustion" and genetic drift offered by mixing a gene pool would be just the ticket to throw off a scientific type community that could study the genetic code from a molecular point of view.

The genetic diseases of today are not evidence of a divine plan. They offer skepticism to the athiest. Moreover we know that genetically different animals can combine to form viable offspring such as the horse and the donkey mating to form mules. The key is not in understanding that the mule is not fertile, but that different chromosomed animals can combine their DNA.

The real proof would be finding individuals alive today that possess the 24 count. Genesis speaks of Nephillum at the time of Noah and after. Presumably the Nephillum did not drown, or that there were additional falls from Heaven. It would be interesting to do some random samplings to see if there is proof of the Nephillum on earth in this time period. 24 chromosome beings could be evidence of Nephillum, of being saved and/or none of the above. If I understand the thread thus far, no one has suggested that chromosome counts are ever done on "normal" people. I know I have never had my chromosomes counted.

On the other hand, the blood of Jesus may simply be the original genetic code and could be used as a fiter for sifting sin from righetousness-a dialysis of the soul, body and spirit if you will.


Replies to this message:
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wj
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 49 (97724)
04-04-2004 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by like god
04-04-2004 5:59 PM


lg, feel free to make up any fantasy you wish to about Adam or Jesus if it makes you feel better. However you need to accept that there is no scientific validity to your fantasy. A "haploid" human is impossible. Why not just invoke a miracle and be done with it?

Genetic screening of new born babies is quite widespread in many modern countries. Incidents of babies with missing chromosomes would be readily noticed and reported. It hasn't happened.

[This message has been edited by wj, 04-04-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by like god, posted 04-04-2004 5:59 PM like god has not yet responded

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 3340 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 14 of 49 (97725)
04-04-2004 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by like god
04-04-2004 5:59 PM


like god writes:

If I understand the thread thus far, no one has suggested that chromosome counts are ever done on "normal" people. I know I have never had my chromosomes counted.

Both Lam and I have already indicated that there have been plenty of chromosome counts done on normal people.

If you want one done, it would be easy. The test is called a "karyotype test". It is quite standard, but not normally applied unless there is some rational reason to think it would actually tell you something useful.

Still, even if you only have completely irrational reasons, you can get the test done. I don't know the cost; but it would not be prohibitive if you were serious about this. Perhaps a couple of hundred dollars. The test is not merely a count of chromosomes; it identifies each one and also looks for gross size errors in any of them.

Just counting the number of chromsomes is comparatively easy. A decent lab could probably do it; you can count chromosomes directly with sufficiently powerful microscope and some preparation of the sample. Someone doing a university course on genetics would most likely have looked at chromosomes under a microscope, and I am sure many courses would have a practical laboratory class in which students examine their own karyotype for themselves.

If you find anyone with a major chromosomal abnormality, even just one extra chromosome or one less chromosome, and yet who shows no physical pathology, you'll hit medical headlines. Don't hold your breath; chromosomes have been counted in normal people plenty of times. You don't imagine that the number 46 is used just on the basis of observing one or two people, do you?

This is because, despite what you may have imagined, chromosomes are not redundant. You've got 46 of them; and they are all used in your cells.

Cheers -- Sylas

(Added comments on university labs)

Also added in edit... OK. I have found a nice example. In the Air Academy High School, there is an advanced biology lab in which students karyotype their own chromosomes.

[This message has been edited by Sylas, 04-04-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by like god, posted 04-04-2004 5:59 PM like god has not yet responded

  
SRO2 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 15 of 49 (97737)
04-04-2004 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by like god
04-03-2004 10:32 AM


Question
How do you know God isn't just insane? If there is a God, why didn't he create perfection? It would have been easy enough...I mean, your application of him is all powerful and all knowing is it not...why was he so frivolous with all that...he just kind of slapped stuff together at the last minute.
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