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Author Topic:   chromosome counts
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 49 (98656)
04-08-2004 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by like god
04-08-2004 9:21 AM


Adam was left with 23 chromosomes including the "y" leaving hime "male". Every mating of Adam + Eve reproduced the original 24. How would it be otherwise?

That's not possible. When haploid individuals mate, the result is diploid.

You can't give a child half of a chromosome. Therefore any child of Adam and Eve will have Adam's 23 chromosomes and Eve's 23 chromosomes, making it diploid.

Like positive and negative charges that balance the universe, their 24 chromosomes were compatible but the antithesis to the original 24.

The opposite of a physical thing, like a chromosome, can't be another thing. The opposite of a thing is the absence of that thing. There can be no such thing as "antithetical chromosomes."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by like god, posted 04-08-2004 9:21 AM like god has not yet responded

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 3333 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 32 of 49 (98668)
04-08-2004 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Dr Jack
04-08-2004 9:57 AM


Mr Jack writes:


Hi Sylas,

I think you're mistaken on one small point:

Sylas writes:

The page you have cited speaks of living humans that are essentially haploid, but with one extra sex chromosome (either X or Y) to match another X. That is not possible. Humans need a full diploid complement to survive

There are people who have XXY chromosones, i.e. an aditional X chromosone - http://47xxy.org/XXY has details. This sounds like what they are talking about. According to the page these people suffer from reduced sperm production but can, in rare cases, reproduce. There are also people with XYY chromosones, that are disproportionaly represented in prison populations.

This is called Klinefelter syndrome, and I mention it by that name in the post you are quoting. Variants of the Klinefelter syndrome include the 47 XXY you describe (the most common form), and also 48 XXXY, 48 XXYY, 49 XXXXY and 49 XXXYY. (See this article for some discussion.)

This syndrome is one of the most common of the major chromosomal abnormalities involving extra chromosomes. Many men with the syndrome will never find out. Early studies linked the syndrome to aggression and violence, and studies do indicate an increased incidence in prison populations. It is an error, however, to regard Klinefelter as implying a genetic predisposition to criminal behaviour. As with many such syndromes, it can have a range of deleterious effects. Anti-social behaviour can result from just not fitting in. With detection and recognition, people with the syndrome usually manage very well. Awareness, and some extra help given for affected children if they need it, is of great help to letting carriers live normal lives.

I really recommend Klinefelter Syndrome Support Group Home Page; most especially the personal story of Stephan, who started the group. He is XXY himself, and his story gives a real insight into the matter.

But I digress....

I'm not mistaken in the quoted comment. In the thread; I was responding to Message 1 by "like god", and he had cited Adam and Eve Prophecy. That page is not describing any actual syndromes in existence; and it is most definitely not describing Klinefelter syndrome. It is pseudoscientific gibberish proposing a biologically impossible karyotype, which is just as I described; haploid, except with sex chromosomes in pairs. The author thinks Adam had 24 chromosomes.

Cheers -- Sylas


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Dr Jack, posted 04-08-2004 9:57 AM Dr Jack has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Dr Jack, posted 04-08-2004 11:29 AM Sylas has not yet responded

  
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 178 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 33 of 49 (98672)
04-08-2004 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Sylas
04-08-2004 11:13 AM


Sorry, Sylas, having a brain fart over Haploid and Diploid.
This message is a reply to:
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like god
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 49 (98673)
04-08-2004 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Dr Jack
04-08-2004 9:57 AM


Ok. We don't have any genetic evidence of the first generations unless we are going to count ape man. I will concede that the evolution of the species from Adam's generation has created a dependency on 46 NOW.

I will concede that the product of Adam and Eve were 46 chromosomed beings. God made Adam in His image by definition. He also has knowledge of good and evil, sexual reproduction. But he does not have a mate other than the church which is not a physiological connection. Therefore the generations could have progressed by sexual reproduction in the good old fashioned way of blood covenant or by nature of asexual reproduction like God by taking of the rib. God produced gametes before the sin as he already knew it was going to happen as He is the alpha and the omega.

With 46 chromosome babies from Adam and Eve as 23 haploid parents, we are still faced with the conclusion that all of Adam's line had to be boys until satan's blood was combined to form women. If Eve was 23 with X and Adam was 23 with Y, and all the gametes were formed from a copy of their genetic code at the time Eve was taken from Adam, then all the offspring would have had XY and resulted in boys.

We are still left with explaining how Seth and Abel were "the image" of Adam if this is supposed to be taken literally as genetic code. Although I agree that opposites would cancel, my point was that there may have been extra material that became additive as it was not intended in the original equation ie a result of sin.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Sylas, posted 04-08-2004 12:02 PM like god has responded

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 3333 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 35 of 49 (98681)
04-08-2004 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by like god
04-08-2004 11:38 AM


like god writes:


Ok. We don't have any genetic evidence of the first generations unless we are going to count ape man. I will concede that the evolution of the species from Adam's generation has created a dependency on 46 NOW.

We don't have any genetic evidence of "ape men" either. We do have some DNA from Homo neanderthalis; but they are not sensibly described as "ape man", unless we are also "ape men". The Neandertals are no closer to the apes than we are.

There is nothing in the bible, or in theology, or in philosophy, or in science, which gives the slightest reason for thinking of 23 or 24 chromosomes for Adam and Eve. The whole thing is bizarre pseudoscientific nonsense invented out of thin air.

With 46 chromosome babies from Adam and Eve as 23 haploid parents, we are still faced with the conclusion that all of Adam's line had to be boys until satan's blood was combined to form women. If Eve was 23 with X and Adam was 23 with Y, and all the gametes were formed from a copy of their genetic code at the time Eve was taken from Adam, then all the offspring would have had XY and resulted in boys.

And the bible says explicitly that Adam had daughters. (Genesis 5:4)

After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters.

Game set and match. The nonsense about chromosomes is in total conflict with all scientific evidence; but that is not all.

It is also in conflict with the biblical record.

The biblical view of being made in God's likeness is not about genetics. God is not some alien creature with a genome that was copied to make humans... though that kind of idea is sometimes used by various New Age wackos who do think God was an alien visitor. The haploid human stuff is just another variant of the New Age spirituality from UFOs; and has nothing whatsoever to do with biblical Christianity.

We are still left with explaining how Seth and Abel were "the image" of Adam if this is supposed to be taken literally as genetic code.

It is perfectly obvious that it has nothing to do with genetic code. That would make God into a physical biological organism with chromosomes of his own.

The biblical notion of likeness is not limited to Adam; it is a characteristic of humanity. See, for example, James 3:9

With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness.

Cheers -- Sylas

[This message has been edited by Sylas, 04-08-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by like god, posted 04-08-2004 11:38 AM like god has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by like god, posted 04-08-2004 2:35 PM Sylas has not yet responded
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like god
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 49 (98707)
04-08-2004 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Sylas
04-08-2004 12:02 PM


We need to be careful of semantics. Image is a differnte word than likeness.

You state that Adam had daughters. The interpretation are the verbs and adjectives added to the original Hebrew. Literally Adam does not have the parts to have any children. Nor is it written that Adam only had relations with Eve. A daughter born of Eve and Satan and then having relations with Adam would create a line of daughters. Incest is a crazy thing when you only have a handful of people! Also if I have a son and he has a daughter, isn't the daughter of my line? Adam had other lines that developed into the wicked people destroyed in the flood, but the Bible speaks of the lines that have significance for carrying on the lines responsible for carrying the Word of God, literally if not genetically.

Game, set and match, only if you apply context to the facts that meet your conclusion!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Sylas, posted 04-08-2004 12:02 PM Sylas has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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SRO2 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 37 of 49 (98711)
04-08-2004 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Sylas
04-08-2004 12:02 PM


As an aside
I had a natural sciences class in college where the Prof. presented the class with a sequential line of real skulls intended to demonstrate the linear progression from ape to humanoid over time (there were seven of them and of course it did not include the missing link one (the space for it was empty)...even without the missing link I would be hard pressed to argue against the obviuos appearance of an evolutionary process occurring. This may upset some people...but imagine being a 19 year old eye witness...the sight of it permanently changed everything I had learned in 19 years and to this day it's a startling memory...sometimes I think I would have been better off having never seen it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Sylas, posted 04-08-2004 12:02 PM Sylas has not yet responded

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 1779 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 38 of 49 (98740)
04-08-2004 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by like god
04-08-2004 2:35 PM


Don't build your theory on sand!
The foundation on which you are building your 24 chromosome theory is shaky to say the least. Do you really believe that Wyatt found the blood of Christ and it only had 24 chromosomes? Try starting at this site and then read further.
http://www.tentmaker.org/WAR/index.html
This message is a reply to:
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like god
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 49 (98773)
04-08-2004 7:25 PM


Ok. Wyatt may be a fake. But the idea of 24 chromosomes seems to line up Biblically although Sylas doesn't see the math. I have some fundamental issues with the thought that Adam and Eve produced all the genetic variety in the species. I am looking at how well a 24 chromosome theory fits into place. A couple of posts ago, I suggested the whole thing could work by turining on the miracle gene combination by the hand of God in 46 chromosomes, but the 24 thing brings a lot of answers into place. I happened upon antoher thread regarding the Exodus that seems to have some merit. I haven't read the whole thread, but it was based on Wyatt's claim. He might be a quack and a prophet.
Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Sylas, posted 04-08-2004 7:46 PM like god has not yet responded

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 3333 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 40 of 49 (98777)
04-08-2004 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by like god
04-08-2004 7:25 PM


like god writes:


Ok. Wyatt may be a fake. But the idea of 24 chromosomes seems to line up Biblically although Sylas doesn't see the math.

This was amusing for a while. I was willing to assume for the sake of argument that the original post from "like god" was genuine; but with this latest post my participation in the charade is done.

You're being an idiot, "like god". You haven't given any maths. Your page doesn't use any maths. You have made no "line up" biblically. There is nothing in the bible suggestive of chromosomes as the answer; and the proposal has the added defect of being biological gibberish. Maths don't come into it. Your main source is unreliable; and most likely a deliberate fraud and huxster.

What is psychologically amusing -- and common -- is the phenomenon of hanging on to a pet idea no matter that every so-called line of evidence argument has been been shredded. It is pretty clear that nothing would possibly shake your faith in this fairy tale; so I'll leave you to it.

Cheers -- Sylas


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by like god, posted 04-08-2004 7:25 PM like god has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 49 (98802)
04-08-2004 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Sylas
04-03-2004 1:08 PM


A human cannot live with cells that only have 23 chromsomes; they need all 46. They can manage with an exrta chromosome; but only in exceptional cases.

Loss of a chromosome is very serious genetic damage, and except in very unusual cases indeed an embryo with a missing chromosome will not even come to term. It is like wings on an aircraft. They may be pretty much identical, but you still need both of them to fly.

If that be the case, wouldn't humans need to to appear on the scene suddenly? It appears to be a nightmare for evolutionists. My appologies if this has been covered in other threads and I missed it.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 49 (98825)
04-08-2004 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Buzsaw
04-08-2004 10:57 PM


If that be the case, wouldn't humans need to to appear on the scene suddenly?

Our ape ancestor was diploid. We're diploid. You can change the organization of the genes by fusing or cleaving chromosomes, but the amount of genes hasn't changed between our ape ancestor and us now.

The situation Like God is describing actually involves a reduced number of genes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Buzsaw, posted 04-08-2004 10:57 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Buzsaw, posted 04-09-2004 1:05 AM crashfrog has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 49 (98840)
04-09-2004 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by crashfrog
04-08-2004 11:46 PM


Our ape ancestor was diploid. We're diploid. You can change the organization of the genes by fusing or cleaving chromosomes, but the amount of genes hasn't changed between our ape ancestor and us now.

I guess you all believe in miracles also. Ape chromozomes fuse together un-naturally so as to produce a human offspring, allegedly? So mom and pop ape have a chromozone accident/miracle and suddenly raise the first human? Otherwise don't you have just as big a problem to explain if the process took a long period of change over time? I guess what I'm asking is how can you have anything produced from partially fused chromozomes while the transition is allegedly going on?

[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 04-09-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by crashfrog, posted 04-08-2004 11:46 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 49 (98843)
04-09-2004 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Buzsaw
04-09-2004 1:05 AM


Ape chromozomes fuse together un-naturally

What's unnatural about it?

I guess what I'm asking is how can you have anything produced from partially fused chromozomes while the transition is allegedly going on?

How do you think that you could "partially fuse" something? It's either one piece, or it's two.

I'm no geneticist, so I imagine I don't have the answers you're looking for - assuming you're looking and not taking potshots. But I imagine the human chromosomal pattern came to dominate the human genome when humans experienced that big bottleneck 80k years ago, or whatever.

Mice regularly have variable chromosome numbers, from what I read. Obviously their interfertility is not severely impacted. I don't see why a chromosome fusion would result in immediate nonfertility with non-fused peers.

It's not the chromosome number that makes the human, it's the genes, don't you think?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Buzsaw, posted 04-09-2004 1:05 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 3333 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 45 of 49 (99150)
04-10-2004 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Buzsaw
04-09-2004 1:05 AM


buzsaw writes:

I guess you all believe in miracles also. Ape chromozomes fuse together un-naturally so as to produce a human offspring, allegedly? So mom and pop ape have a chromozone accident/miracle and suddenly raise the first human? Otherwise don't you have just as big a problem to explain if the process took a long period of change over time? I guess what I'm asking is how can you have anything produced from partially fused chromozomes while the transition is allegedly going on?

I don't think the fused chromosome has all that much to do with the difference between humans and other apes. The significant genetic difference, as far as sciece can tell, is in the genes themselves, rather than in the arrangement as chromosomes.

Robertson fusion and translocation is a natural process; not a special miracle. It amazes me that creationists are so slow to appreciate the "miraculous" aspects of the natural world, which we can see and study. You can shuffle off Robertsonian fusion into a distinct category of "miracle"; but don't project that onto others. I don't particularly care how you divide up phenomena into miraculous and non-miraculous. Personally, I think perfectly normal birth and reproduction is as miraculous as a thing can be. Various aspects of this process, including the processes by which cells manage the various problems of DNA not quite lining up as expected and yet still resulting in a viable living human, is a wonderful thing.

It is possible that you yourself have this kind of abnormality. They occur perhaps once in a thousand births. If the cells manage to get all the genes copied okay, even if arranged into one less chromosome, then it is quite likely that there is no immediate effect for you yourself.

The most likely immediate consequence is not on you directly; since you still have all the same genes. The difficulty is with your children, as the reproductive chemistry struggles to match up chromosomes with your partner. If you happen to have 45 chromosomes due to a Robertson fusion, your children are very likely to have more serious consequences, like trisomny or monosomny; and this is often fatal for a developing embryo.

For some simple background on fusions of this kind observed in humans right now, see translocations at the Genetics and Public Policy Center.

For some reason not fully understood, mice seem particularly susceptible to this kind of chromosomal combination; and so there has been a lot of study on the matter in that context. Basically, chromosomal fusion can contribute to speciation. If a fusion becomes fixed within a population then that population may become viable but with no gene flow to populations with the original parent species. A dramatic instance of this style of speciation is houce mice on the island of Maderia, where there are now six distinct species with their own characteristic karyotype. One of these populations is apparently in a midstage of transition, with two karyotypes present in the breeding population.

The implication is that around a time when a fused chromosome became established in a human population, you would not notice any great change in external form.

The answer to your question thus appears to be that we know, because we can observe it directly, that changes in karyotype are possible. The change is likely to be comparatively rapid on geological scales, and unlikely to represent a major change in form. It is likely to contribute to speciation, however, by making interbreeding with a subpopulation carrying fused chromosomes significantly less viable.

The major erroneous assumptions in your question are the implication that all it takes to make a human is to fuse two ape chromosomes, and the implication that there is something unnatural or inexplicable about karyotype changes in populations.

Cheers -- Sylas


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Buzsaw, posted 04-09-2004 1:05 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
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